The 6.0 has beaten me

[AMCTech]

I've been in the automobile/mobile equipment service business for 22 years. Worked had, apprenticed, served the customer like I would want to be served, earned my ASE's all the way to Master, then L1, C1, Deere, Allis Chalmers, Case/IH, American Motors, Eagle/Jeep, and finally Ford....and today, I must admit the 6.0 has beaten me. Logic, reason, the allmighty PC/ED, nothing seems to prevail over this masterpiece of technician suffering.

 

I had a bad day

[Torqued_Up]

Sounds like you need a hug! If you can't fix a truck, make a post and we will try to take the logical approach. It's just a machine, don't let it get to ya... but when I have a bad day it sometimes is best to put it aside and go out with the guys for a brew or two and yuk it up!

[Keith Browning]

Quote:

Sounds like you need a hug!

You ain't right Ed. I do agree that walking away from a problem vehicle to come back later with a clear head is sometimes needed.

[Jim Warman]

Sometimes, I have lot's of those, Lance... Like Keith says... excape from the problem for a while - come back with a clear head...

 

One old guy I worked with many years ago would always offer this "cheery" advice.... "Cheer up, Jimmy.... things are never so bad that they can't get worse....".

 

The 6.0 (or any truck part, for that matter) is simply "scrap iron on the hoof".... it can frustrate us, but it can't beat us if we don't let it.

 

FWIW, I can no longer say I have dodged the head gasket bullet. After three trucks where I couldn't find the injector spool valve nut, they handed me the frosting for my cake. We are going into day seven of having this half century plus old back hunkered over the side of a SD... Word of advice for you guys - buy shares in Robaxacet - I'm about to send their profits skyrocketting.

[AMCTech]

Well, here goes. Customer, with no prior service history with us, not even an oil change, states no start when hot. Verified fault, OASIS ran with no prior repair history, TSB/SSA, pre-checks find slightly high oil-level with dipstick off-tube, customer insists oil recently changed and does not want oil change "from me", KOEO on demand pass, KOEO injector selft test pass, KOER pass, Continuous memory pass....all subsequent tests pass (I wont go through the whole hard-start worksheet), datalogger with ECT, ICP, IPR#, EOT, and RPM# shows: ICP 890 PSI @ 650 RPM @ 83F,

ICP drops in inverse proprtion to ECT then levels off at about 650 psi @ 195F. ICP very responsive all the way to 1900 psi @ 2000rpm. The moment you shut down however, normal crank, no start. ICP approx 350 psi @ 225 crank rpm. Proceed with PC/ED symptom chart for hard start. Air test reveals injectors #3 and 5 dumping oil, consult KnotLine, confirm failure and replace. Verify, same hard hot start with similar parameters. KnotLine again, deadhead pump, crank ICP 650 psi(but by the time I get that far the engine is cool again so test results cannot be trusted). Knotline suggests replace IPR with known good unit (I love Ford and the Known Good thingy), verify repair, only slightly higher ICP but not high enough when hot to restart. Called Knotline again, they suggest replace both standpipes due to increasing number early-build pipe fractures which exhibit the same symptom. So that's where I am, and I figure for this whole freakin evolution I'll probably stub 5 hours. That's why I was so downtrodden with my first post. So if youse guys have any input or thoughts, especially about fractured early build standpipes, let me know! And finally, thanks to all for the encouraging words. The dealership layed off a goodly number of fixed expense assets (we humans call that people)yet refused to terminate the charlatain parasite shade-tree's that make going to work painful.

[snw blue by you]

Sound like a HPOP or base oil pump failure when hot, you obviously have an ICP issue [too low when hot]so forget about everything else. If the stand pipes were at issue, the engine would never start. If you had leaking o-rings etc, the engine would never start or at the very least run like a bag of shit[technical term]all the time.

You have good ICP when cold, but low when hot, think rotating parts, heat expansion, etc.

Verify base oil pressure[2 ways- if gauge registers there is at least 12psi, remove filter close the drain and have someone crank engine, housing should fill w/i 10 sec.]If that checks ok, replace the HPOP,and while your at it, might as well throw an ICP sensor at it[surprised the hotline didn't tell you to do that as well].

BEEN THERE,DONE THAT!

[HGM]

Sorry snw, gota disagree....

 

The stand pipes WILL cause this, as will an o-ring.

 

First off, what year is the tuck and what condition is it in now? V/C on/off? Intake on/off? Etc...

 

I also agree this is a HP oil system failure, let us know the vehicle details and we'll have it fixed soon... May not be fun , but you'll fix it.

[snw blue by you]

Unless I am reading the post incorrectly,the only problem with this logic, is that he replaced the stand pipes to no avail.

In my experience with the hotline, they will never tell you what the actual failure is, but they will have you replace every part in the HP oil system until the pump is all that is left. IN THE MEANTIME YOU HAVE WASTED UNTOLD HOURS!, and look like a complete boob in the eyes of your SM.

When I took the Diesel Perf. class 3 weeks ago, I was the only tech that had even seen an HPOP, let alone replace one, sorry, make that 15 and counting!

It is my personal experience that leaking standpipes and or o-rings, will either have the effect of a complete no start, or a rough run/random miss. Until I see otherwise I don't believe that it will cause a cold/hot start issue, loss of pressure in the system is just that, I don't care what year 6.0L it is.

Of course, if the diag procedures are followed, it should make it easier. If you air test and command IPR closed and there is no leak, HPOP.

"HPOP pump failures are extremely rare, it is something we very rarely see" . Ford Technical Hotline.

Thats because we techs that actually fix these damn things have given up calling.

If he keeps going, they will have him replacing the PCM, before the HPOP.

This is just my opinion based on experience and training, I could be wrong.

[HGM]

Well,whatever works for you..

 

I saw the fact that it didnt fix it, I was just addressing the fact that it wont. I have seen them with cracks that you could hardly see.

 

HPOP is rare, you got a string of them I guess..Unless youre replacing the fitting and J-tube at the same time..

 

Good luck w/them.

[AMCTech]

I know,and it makes sense however, comma, deadheaded the pump icp at crank is about 950 psi. Problem is, by the time I get the rocker covers off and the block fittings on (not to mention any other invasive procedures, the engine is cool enough to "return to normal". I've even tried running it while the covers are off but it make such a tremendous mess that I have to shut down quickly. You may remember I said that the owner indicated that the oil had recently been changed. On initial pre-check, the oil level was high, even with dipstick off-cocked. That directs you to tsb whatever (i can't remember) that gives you an injector internal leak diag. The owner refused to allow me to remove the oil, or change it for that matter. Frustrated, I drained his oil anyway and measured 21 quarts total, with no injector leak/diesel fuel detected at the drain. Remember when I said no service history? Never a dealership oil change or records of such at all? Apparently, his local garage overfilled the crankcase to the tune of 5 quarts. I did notice some foam present in the oil when drained. Upon refill with new oil and filter, ICP jumped to 425 @ 190 rpm (crank) @ 195F. The new oild definitely made a difference but we still have a low/hot icp problem. Perhaps the hp oil pump was scored by the foamed oil, which affords inadequate protection????

[AMCTech]

BTW, 03 F350 Styleside, Early-build 6.0.

[AMCTech]

And actually, since the low icp is present at ect's at or over 175f or so, by the time you air test the thing is cool again, thus inaccurate readings. The CrotchLine actually suggested I "find some way to keep the engine hot", to which I reply "I can build a fire under it". The engineer was silent to that suggestion.

[AMCTech]

And since my low back is completly out now, the new standpipes are NOT, I say again, NOT in.

[HGM]

You should be able to run this with the valve covers off w/o making too big of mess. You'll need to get them off and run it long enough to make the concern present, you may also get it to duplicate by plugging in the block heater.

 

From this point you need to add shop air,do this before shutting the IPR. once you shut the IPR listen for a leak with a stetheskope, dont try to just liten by ear. Listen near top of injector were the oil rail connects, if you dont hear a leak there(or see smoke) listen for air leaking around the rear push rods. This is were you will hear a HP pump or connector leak.

 

If you dont hear it in the heads, you'll have to remove the intake and HP cover.

 

At this point you can add air to the top of the pump where it dumps into the cover(IPR drain).. Make sure you put the plug back into the oil rail or you'll get a bath .

 

With the top of the engine open, you can see the pump, J-tube, connector, o-rings and top of the branch tube while eliminating the cover and IPR.

 

You will find the leak this way, usually you can see smoke. Just make sure you give it a chance to bleed the oil out when doing the air test, if you rush it, you'll miss it. Good luck. keep us posted.

[HGM]

Well, hang on... I must have been typing while you were.. What state is it in now? even with it cold you'll have some leakage with air, though it might take a little while to push the oil out.. Do an air test and let it sit with air on it for 30 min or so. see what you can see and hear.

[HGM]

You can also check your standpipes by removing them, plugging one end then filling them with brake cleaner a looking for a leak. This is a small leak and can very possibly be the concern. I was under the impression that you had already tried them to no avail. The cracks I have seen are vertical in the middle of the pipe.

[AMCTech]

That's ok. What you've mentioned has already been covered, first via the hard start worksheet, then to symptom chart in the PC/ED for hard start. At this point, I've handed the whole affair to the service manager, since I will be departing Friday.

[HGM]

Sorry to hear that, hope it wasnt over this truck... Good luck.

[ktmlew]

I know,and it makes sense however, comma, deadheaded the pump icp at crank is about 950 psi.

Shouldn't it go WAY past 950 deadheaded? Have you checked the base oil-pressure with a real guage? Sounds like either a lack of base oil pressure or the HP pump has temp related internal leakage.

[HGM]

Yes, it should... I believe we have a J-tube or standpipe cracked...Guess we'll never know.

 

AMC, can you post the vin on this truck? or PM it to me when you get a chance please.

[Keith Browning]

Good advice and I tried to back-up this information with a spec on the pump. Here's the funny part quoted from the PCED:

Quote:

With the high-pressure pump effectively deadheaded, crank the engine and monitor the ICP PID. If a low pressure condition still exists, the problem is most likely with the high-pressure pump or the high-pressure pump drive gear.

I'll be damned if I can find a specification anywhere and how would you read the pump pressure on a 2004+ engine? I remember doing this on the 7.3L using one of the oil feed hoses and one adapter to use the ICP sensor and monitored the PID with NGS. Can't do that on a 6.0L!

[HGM]

Keith,

First off throw the NGS away when it comes to the 6.0. Its unreliable and gives false readings. WDS it the tool, unless ou have a PDS.

 

The dead head test can be done on all 6.0's the problem is that you have to have the fittings. '03,'04,'05-6 have different tools. The issue we have is that the learning curve on this engine is extremely sharp. Things have changed dramaticly ove the years. If your using paper books, you'll get bit because the books dont get corrected. Electronic books are the best bet. If you need the block off tool numbers I'll post them this afternoon. I personally have gotten quite proficient with the air test and rarely use the block off tools. You need to use a stethescope.

[Keith Browning]

Quote:

First off throw the NGS away when it comes to the 6.0. Its unreliable and gives false readings. WDS it the tool, unless ou have a PDS.

I was referring to the way I used to run the test on a 7.3L. My point was that the newer engines that don't have the ICP sensor in the pump cover don't give you a way to measure deadhead pump pressure... or have I missed something? And yes, a stethoscope is a must have with this procedure. If you can identify the leak at one side or the other without any major parts removal you will save a lot of time.

Quote:

And actually, since the low icp is present at ect's at or over 175f or so, by the time you air test the thing is cool again, thus inaccurate readings. The CrotchLine actually suggested I "find some way to keep the engine hot"

Plug in the block heater! That has also helped me find leaking injectors that only leaked when hot.

[snw blue by you]

If the system is deadheaded, using WDS [or NGS, as WDS is not always available!]you should get an ICP reading of 2700 to 3000 psi, cold, hot, doesn't matter. Simple as that!

You never forget your first pump! wasted boocoo time. NEVER AGAIN! Stop screwing around, and replace the pump.

And another thing, if I am pulling the standpipes, you can bet your ass they are getting replaced.

[HGM]

Yea, the block off tools work just like they did on the 7.3, they only eliminate the injectors a rails though, so you could still have leaking stand pipes and branch tube. The ICP goes into the block off tool at the top of the standpipe on the passenger side and the plug goes in on the drivers side. This will give you pump dead head.

 

The block off tools are

#303-756 for '03

#303-1071/1 & 2 for '04

#303-1163/1 & 2 for '05-6