2008 F-250 Flames Out Of Tailpipe

[mchan68]

I swear to God, Friday afternoons always suck for me!!! After starving for a whole day, I got one of these in on the hook:

 

 

As you can see, by the appearance tailpipe, there's no doubt in my mind the customer is telling it like it is. Wich I could have been around to witness it.

 

 

Here's what's left of the DPF pressure sensor and the wiring, which by the way, is burnt completely to a crisp to almost all three EGT sensors, so likely mandates the harness needs to be replaced too.

 

 

And here is an underbody shot to illustrate exactly how hot it got.

 

KOEO Test: On-Demand: P2032, P2291. Continuous Memory: P0219, P0652, P200E, P2032, P2081, P2085, P2291. Freeze Frame Mode #2: P200E. Freeze Frame Mode #12: Same As Continuous Memory. Pending: P0652, P2032. Vehicle fails to start at this time. Monitored PIDs. FRP psi peaks out at 125 psi during engine cranking. Also monitored IAT, IAT #2, ECT, EOT, EGT_11, EGT_12 and EGT_13 at KOEO. EGT_12 fluctuates between -40*F to 1.7K*F while the others are about 87 to 88*F. Engine oil level appears overfull by using "short stick" method check. Just drained exactly 28 litres of engine oil/fuel mixture from crankcase and CAC. Evidently, SOMETHING inside the high pressure fuel system let go, but WHERE? It also appears I'm into an EGT_12 to start, how about a DOC and DPF? With all those DTCs, where do I begin?

 

Help me out guys!!! I hate 6.4Ls!!!!

[Keith Browning]

What is the build date and what calibration is in the PCM The reflash/recall that came out after that flame video was supposed to shut things fown if EGT's got out of hand...

[mchan68]

What is the build date and what calibration is in the PCM The reflash/recall that came out after that flame video was supposed to shut things fown if EGT's got out of hand...

 

The vehicle build date is 06/23/2007. The PCM calibration level that is currently installed in this truck is 8U7A-12A650-CF. There is an update available to level CG. The last time this truck was in for a PCM recal was back in March 10th of 2009 at 37370 miles at Napa Ford Lincoln Mercury in CA. The vehicle now has 63630 miles (It's a U.S. vehicle).

[Keith Browning]

Well, flames or not that exhaust got screaming hot by the look of those pictures. For might be interested in them or that vehicle. Have you contacted the Hot-Line?

[mchan68]

Well, flames or not that exhaust got screaming hot by the look of those pictures. For might be interested in them or that vehicle. Have you contacted the Hot-Line?

Yes, I have. I was even asked to e-mail those pictures to some guy at Ford, before any diagnostic assistance would be offered by them. As it stands now, I have been authorized to carry on with diagnosis as needed to determine the cause of the issue, which to me appears to be a high pressure fuel system leak somewhere. But the main question now lies is, how deep do I go?

[Keith Browning]

Well Mike, you go as far as you must to get to the root cause. The advice I think you are fishing for is look at everything on the way in and rule out nothing. The moment you find anything that points to a non-Ford cause or condition you stop and get approval to continue or repair. The moment you find a Ford warranty concern you stop and fill out forms and make telephone calls... then you make a pain staking repair. Welcome to the abyss.

[mchan68]

Well, Hot-Line is instructing me to remove all glow plugs to perform the "glow plug mist" test. Sounds simple enough. Except when trying to unplug the 15 pin connector on the driver side to the UVC harness. Access to that connector is rediculously tight, which leads me to this question. How important is this step? Bear in mind this vehicle fails to build more than 200 psi of FRP (which is miles away from the minimum spec of 4000). If I were to guess, my thinking is that the purpose is to prevent the injectors from being commanded to pulse (which it shouldn't anyway without the minimum 4000 right?). Also, am I looking for fuel to shoot out of the glow plug hole(s) to determine faulty injector(s) that are leaking fuel past the nozzle(s)? Am I supposed to be doing this with the valve covers removed? Sorry for so many questions. I have read through the PC/ED on some of these tests, and YES I not ashamed to admit that I'm still a little "green" with these 6.4L engines, which must be second nature to most of you gents. But any help you guys can offer is greatly appreciated so I won't be getting it up the ass on this one too.

 

Also, the harness underneath is burnt so badly the damage extends the all three EGT sensors. Does this mandate replacement of the DOC/DPF, since it got THAT hot? I'm assuming that none of the exhaust components are going to come apart co-operatively for inspection.

[Brad Clayton]

If you don't want to power the injectors up or anything else for that matter, just jump the single starter wire to batt positive to spin the motor over. You know the yellow wire in the single connector over on the passengers side.

[mchan68]

If you don't want to power the injectors up or anything else for that matter, just jump the single starter wire to batt positive to spin the motor over. You know the yellow wire in the single connector over on the passengers side.

Yes I know the one. The one that Ford should've made longer LOL. Should this test not be carried out with ignition in the RUN position though, since it keeps the low pressure fuel pump pumping and the low side of the system pressurized?

[Brad Clayton]

You got a good point. I have done so many engines, that I was thinking about building oil pressure without worry of the engine starting. Also good for compression tests.

[Brad Clayton]

Well, the biggest code that I see that's a problem is the P0219 engine overspeed condition. This code sets when the engine runs over 4 grand for more than 3 seconds. Bet the customer failed to mention that. That's definitely an oh shit moment. Its been to my experience that an unrequested increase in throttle ususally turns into an unrequested engine replacement.

 

Don't worry about all those exhaust codes, you already know what's wrong there. Those are just flags letting you know something happened. Same with the low fuel rail pressure code.

 

You really need to sort out all of that shortened and burned up harness underneath, first. This is most likely the cause of code P0652 (VREF pulled low) also get a new EGT12 sensor in or at least plugged into the harness. That stuff has to be fixed whether or not it gets major engine repairs and won't have to be fooled with again til the engine is running. At that point you can determine if your back pressure is out of whack due to possible melted internal pipe guts.

 

So now that leaves you with a serious fuel leak to deal with, while that harness and underneath stuff is on order. I would make sure there is fuel available to the system, by checking low side then bleeding the high side, just to rule it out. I would definitely remove both valve covers and look around in there. Check for busted rockers of push rod damage. Put a wrench on every fuel line fitting and hold down bolts to check for loose stuff. I have never had much luck with the mist test. It would have to be more like a puke test to make an acurate faulty injector tip leak diag. Give it a shot anyway, I would get a read on cylinder pressures right after that also. If that much oil was drained and the guy is servicing it correctly then you may find a base engine problem right there. These engines dont like the fuel that gets metered into them much less any other liquids that arent requested. An inverted injector test maybe the next step. There again, hard to get good results unless it has a severely failed injector or 2 or 3....

 

So, the fuel is getting into the crankcase and or exhaust by either the injectors overfueling, any line or connection under the valve covers leaking, or a faulty hpfp externally leaking back into the sump, right? Should be tit to figure out.

[Keith Browning]

Yes I know the one. The one that Ford should've made longer LOL. Should this test not be carried out with ignition in the RUN position though, since it keeps the low pressure fuel pump pumping and the low side of the system pressurized?

Mike it has been a while for me but I recall that you disconnect both 15 way connectors, remove all the glow plugs, turn the ignition on as to power up the HFCM to provide some fuel pressure and crank the engine. Look for any cylinders emitting a nice cloud of fuel vapor. This test is designed to help identify leaking fuel injectors. It is less time consuming and safer than the Inverted Injector test.

 

I have searched for instructions or even some mention of the glowplug mist test on FMC Dealer or the PTS site. No luck. It seems that all of these little tips and tricks the Hot-Line used to post are no longer coming out... and all of the ones that used to be posted are no longer there either or they have been move to some obscure place. So if we can find an official set of instructions I will post something... maybe a quick article as to archive it.

[Jim Warman]

Y'know... the more I think about it the more I have to wonder about the "porcupine" test. I think most of us (yours truly included) have remarked on how unsafe we feel this test is... after all, can't we see even 30,000 PSI in this system at times?

 

But... let's apply a little logic (has anyone actually measured high fuel pressure while cranking other than to say 'yeah - we got some'?).

 

So... we're gonna crank the engine over at sssaaayyyy 170 RPM. The cam will be turning 85 rpm and (without counting gear teeth and only vaguely remembering relative gear diameters) the HPFP is going to be turning something like 120~130 rpm - maybe less.

 

Is this building as much pressure as we fear?

 

And..... AND..... if an injector is merely leaking (and not stuck wide open) what might the pressure drop across the nozzle be?

 

I'm not saying "don't be vigilant".... But I'm wondering if we aren't making a mountain out of a mole hill?

 

Enquiring minds want to know....

[Keith Browning]

Yumpin yimminy Jimmy! It isn't the pressure that ain't there that I fear, its wasting the time required to remove the injectors and mount them upside down when the mist test can/should achieve the same goal in a fraction of the time.

[Jim Warman]

Yes I know the one. The one that Ford should've made longer LOL.

I'm glad they didn't make it longer.... imagine the condition the male terminal might be in if it would reach the stud on the positive battery connector? Imagine the number of idiots that would force this burned nub of a connector together and now it is in your bay?

 

I connect my remote starter button with patch cords... anything else is small scale arc welding.

[Brad Clayton]

Quote:

I have searched for instructions or even some mention of the glowplug mist test on FMC Dealer or the PTS site. No luck.

I lifted this from the PCED, step 18 of the no start/hard start section:

Quote:

18. Glow Plug Mist Test — No Start
Purpose:
WARNING: Contact with exposed fuel injector wiring, if energized, may result in
electric shock. Use care when working on or around energized fuel injector wiring. Fuel
injector wiring supplies high voltage to operate the fuel injectors. Failure to follow this
instruction may result in serious personal injury.
The purpose of this test is to find a fuel injector with a leaking nozzle for a no start condition.
For a hard start condition, continue to the Power Balance Test in this section to continue
diagnosis.
Glow Plug Mist Test — No Start
Glow Plug Mist Test — No Start
Bank 1 Bank 2
Cylinder 1 (YES/NO) Cylinder 2 (YES/NO)
Cylinder 3 (YES/NO) Cylinder 4 (YES/NO)
Cylinder 5 (YES/NO) Cylinder 6 (YES/NO)
Cylinder 7 (YES/NO) Cylinder 8 (YES/NO)
4-30 Diagnostic Subroutines
Hard Start/No Start Diagnostic Procedures
Recommended Procedure:
Note: This test is intended to diagnose a leaking fuel injector tip for vehicles with a no start
condition only. If the engine runs, do not carry out this test, a fuel injector may be
misdiagnosed as the leak may be to small to be visually detected. Excessive engine oil in
a cylinder can mislead to multiple fuel injectors being suspected for leaks.
• Disconnect the 15-pin inline connector on the left hand valve cover harness.
• Disconnect the 15-pin inline connector on the right hand valve cover harness.
• Remove all glow plugs.
• Crank the engine 15 seconds 2 times to clear the cylinders.
• Crank the engine 15 seconds while checking for a mist from the glow plug holes.
If a mist is visible from one glow plug hole, install a new fuel injector at the cylinder in question
and repeat the test to verify the repair. Verify the engine oil level and quality after the repair,
change the engine oil and check the charge air cooler (CAC) for contamination. Refer to the
Workshop Manual Section 303-12, Charge Air Cooler Repairs, for the correct cleaning procedures.
If a mist is visible from all glow plug holes or one bank of glow plug holes then carry out the
Inverse Fuel Injector Leak Test in this section to continue diagnosis.
If no mist is visible from any glow plug holes, carry out the Fuel Injector Return Port Leak Test -
No Start in this section to continue diagnosis.
Possible Causes:
• Fuel injectors
Tools Required:

[Keith Browning]

THANK YOU!!! I looked there but I guess not close enough. Imagine that. Flat-rate reading on Sunday morning!

[Brad Clayton]

Lets see....trying to read on a morning that follows Saturday, gonna have to quote the all knowing Peter Griffin on this one "I'm not drunk, I'm just tired from being up all night drinking"

[mchan68]

Well guys. I did the mist test. After farting around with the driver side 15 way UVC connector unsuccessfully I said fuck it, and proceeded with the IDS connected and the FUEL_PW PID up (to make sure it stayed at zero). Cranking the engine over with the key in the RUN position and both valve covers removed, revealed some strong fuel mists exiting from cylinders #2 and #8. No visible valvetrain damage is evident at this time. Did a manual compression test, and the results are as follows: Cyl. #1 @ 300 psi, Cyl. #2 @ 300 psi, Cyl. #3 @ 380 psi, Cyl. #4 @ 350 psi, Cyl. #5 @ 380 psi, Cyl. #6 @ 370 psi, Cyl. #7 @ 385 psi and Cyl. #8 @ 300 psi. As per Hot-Line instruction, I even attempted a HP fuel system debris check (step #28 of PC/ED no-start/hard-start). Here's the kicker. With cylinder #2 injector supply line removed, and a rubber hose connected to the outlet of the HP rail and cranking the engine over I get ZERO fuel exiting the hose. So what now? At this point, with three of eight cylinders low on compression and no visible valvetrain damage, it's at the point where the heads are coming off. So, up in the air truck goes with my own B+ and B- supplied to the HFCM, and the drain plug from the oil pan removed, the last check is a fuel leak from the HPFP into the crankcase test (step #24 as per Hot-Line instruction). I left the HFCM powered up while attacking all eight cab bolts with the gas axe (since the cab IS going to be removed any ways). Still no fuel.

[Brad Clayton]

Quote:

Here's the kicker. With cylinder #2 injector supply line removed, and a rubber hose connected to the outlet of the HP rail and cranking the engine over I get ZERO fuel exiting the hose.

What did you have for base fuel pressure and did you have non aerated fuel coming back to the fuel cooler from the HPFP?

So what now? At this point, with three of eight cylinders low on compression and no visible valvetrain damage, it's at the point where the heads are coming off. So, up in the air truck goes with my own B+ and B- supplied to the HFCM, and the drain plug from the oil pan removed, the last check is a fuel leak from the HPFP into the crankcase test

That pump would have to be seriously busted to show anything with that test. The best way to check the pump for a leak into the sump is to do the high pressure test multiple times, I mean a bunch in a row. This doesn't do you any good at the moment cause the engine doesnt run.

(step #24 as per Hot-Line instruction). I left the HFCM powered up while attacking all eight cab bolts with the gas axe (since the cab IS going to be removed any ways). Still no fuel.

A air leak test would give you a good idea of your loss of compression before tearing it down. But I have a feeling this engine is toasted. Like I said before it don't like extra fluids in them bores.

[mchan68]

What did you have for base fuel pressure and did you have non aerated fuel coming back to the fuel cooler from the HPFP?

Base fuel pressure was good. Didn't check for non-aerated fuel.

 

Originally Posted By: Brad Clayton

That pump would have to be seriously busted to show anything with that test. The best way to check the pump for a leak into the sump is to do the high pressure test multiple times, I mean a bunch in a row. This doesn't do you any good at the moment cause the engine doesnt run.

Yes, I know. Hot-Line already told me the same thing.

 

 

Originally Posted By: Brad Clayton

A air leak test would give you a good idea of your loss of compression before tearing it down. But I have a feeling this engine is toasted. Like I said before it don't like extra fluids in them bores.

As in a cylinder leak-down test? What if it's piston(s) that are damaged, causing the low compression on cylinders #1, #2 and #8?

 

At this point, what's bothering me most is not having found anything conclusive to determine the cause of the HP fuel system failure yet before I rip it apart. Believe it or not, ripping it apart doesn't really bother me at this point. It's all just nuts and bolts after all. It's getting to the point where I'm going to have to start crunching numbers, making phone calls, running around back and forth looking up more needed parts is what bothers me most.

 

Oh, and let's not forget worrying about whether or not I'm actually going to get paid to do all this work.

[Brad Clayton]

I would want to know for sure what is coming out of the HPFP. If you still got the thing somewhat intact, just hook up the high pressure side bleed tool that goes in the banjo portion of the line and spin it. Should be some serious fuel pouring out.

 

As far as the mist out of 2 and 8, if the rods are bent then you could be seeing oil vapor coming out. Or it could need those two injectors. Tough call. A cylinder leak test will blow air out of any port coming from the crankcase if you have piston/cylinder wall damage.

 

If indeed you have major engine damage, a running complete maybe the simple solution, or short block and injectors and pump at the least. It's a shot gun parts cannon approach, but how long does the guy want to be without his truck and how much money does he want to spend now or later.

[hitechmech]

I've seen this on IC school buses. The injectors leak at the tips causing over fueling the exhaust gets so hot it melts and as an end result the HPFP is damaged from all the excessive heat. The first one i had the honor to work on actually started after DOC DPF and sensors were changed but would only idle. the next one wouldn't start at all. I've got one here currently where cyl 4 and 5 injector tips broke off and driver kept going until he could no longer see from all the smoke, then realized he had created more of a problem with a run away engine.

[rlchv70]

I've seen this on IC school buses. The injectors leak at the tips causing over fueling the exhaust gets so hot it melts and as an end result the HPFP is damaged from all the excessive heat.

I agree with your assessment except for the last part. The HPFP likely went first, causing the injector leaks.

[Keith Browning]

And any time I have had an engine come in with severe injector problems an engine was required to repair... fuel washed cylinder walls, melted piston crowns, melted glow plug tips, and in one case a torched exhaust valve.