DEF Usage?

[Aaron]

Anyone seen excessive DEF usage?

 

Have a customer that's used 4 gallons in a little over 1800 miles.

 

Doing the math using average regeneration distance, the truck is using approximately 64oz of DEF per reneneration cycle.

 

No codes. No leaks. Waiting for customer return to do the dosing module test.

 

This truck went 9956km on it's first oil change -- when it was filled at the first service, it took 2 gallons. Since 9956k, we're now at 13071km, and have gone through 4 gallons. Only change has been the 10B17 PCM update. No loading/driving conditions have changed, fuel economy has remained the same, as well as driveability.

 

Customer never got a warning before the first LOF regarding fluid level, and it only taking 2 gallons goes in line with this.

[rlchv70]

FYI, the DEF is not used only during a regen. The regen is for the DPF, not the SCR catalyst. The DEF is continuously injected above a certain temperature.

[Brad Clayton]

Alright bud, your confusing the shit outa me. First you start out with this kilometer crap then you start talking in gallons. What's next, miles and liters in the same paragraph?

[cbriggs]

Ha, try going to school in Canada. We are supposedly 100% metric, but for some reason i was taught measuring in feet and inches. Our govenment requires all brake and tire specs in 32nds of an inch (on a pm inspection). Lets not forget (your) gallon versus a canadian gallon. Confusion is standard issue.

[Jim Warman]

I lived through the "great conversion". T'ain't no big thaing, Bubba!!

 

A lot of Canadians couldn't make the switch - like new Canadians talking the language from the old country, the kids learn from Mom and Dad... and they learn from everywhere else too.

 

"Ambidextrous" measures aren't uncommon as people use familiar measures (teaspoons and cups when cooking, liters when buying soda and gas, pounds when buying this and kilos when buying that)... some of us got a better grasp or feel.... "Yeah, that's about 5 meters give or take a foot" or "somewhere between 18mm and 3/4 inch".

 

Bad thing is that it confuses a very easy system of measure...

 

If the world were a truly metric place to live, the next drill bit up from 8 mm would probably be 8.5 mm. Much simpler than having to figure that the next drill bit up from 5/16ths inch would be ummmm - ummmmm - ummmm 21/64ths (try and say that real fast without looking at your drill index).

 

Almost forgot. When water freezes at 0 and boils at 100.... simple...

 

Obligatory comment on DEF usage..... I'll bet most everyone that got the more power reflash has seen DEF usuage go up....

[cbriggs]

Ya, I agree. Metric is way simpler and more accurate by far. When i look at something though, i can only visualize feet and inches. I do alot of constuction and woodwork, and find I'm always working in feet and inches. My brother is a civil engineer, and works in metric. When given a measurement in metric (like say 3.4 meters) I have to convert it to feet to "picture" what it is. I didnt live through the "great conversion". I was born well after it, thats why its so frustrating.

[Steve Mutter]

This is an old topic, but now that 6.7 has been out for a couple of years I was hoping that someone has come across a def usage problem.  I have a 2012 f-350 drw and the customer states that he went thru 40-50 litters of def with in 10 000 kms.  I have no codes at all, performed dosing test and found it made 50 ml's of def.  The hotline did not give me anything to chew on, so I was wondering what else I could look at and test.  Thanks

[Bruce Amacker]

Hey Steve!

 

Look closely at the air filter and MAF as they play a part in the calculations.

 

Here's captures from an identical truck- 2012 F350 DRW at a steady cruise, this guy is a friend of mine and his DEF usage is normal or below normal. These captures were taken at a lightly loaded 46mph on a flat level road at light throttle, I was actually surprised to see the DEF injector working at all. Maybe take yours for a ride and compare the graph and pressures.....

 

 

 

PS the spec for delivery is 45-55ml, the one I tested barely made 45ml.

[DieselD]

Keep in mine the DEF deteriorates overtime depending on how its stored. I have found on our trucks I see a higher usage of DEF the longer my drum sits in my shop with the summer heat.

[Bruce Amacker]

I'd be happy to debate that with you, DEF does not degrade much at all over time unless the storage temp is dramatically above normal. Ford (or somebody, I don't have all of my stuff with me right now) did a test using Phoenix's summer temps and still found a very long (Months?  Years?  I'll look it up when I get home.) shelf life of DEF.  I have a bottle born (IIRC) in May of 2009 and it still tests out at 32-33% using an electronic tester. It's been stored in an unheated building in Cleveland since I bought it.  There's a TON of incorrect info floating around about DEF, still.  I'll put more info up on this when I get home.  I almost think we already had this discussion and I might have already posted the info......

 

[Steve Mutter]

Cool Thanks for the info ! Could low quality def cause usage problems?

[Bruce Amacker]

IMO, probably not.  All DEF sold mets international (DIN?) standards so it's probably not the DEF.

 

[mrbudge]

Hey Mutter, I would think bad def fluid would cause the dreaded p207f?

[Steve Mutter]

_{Ya that's true. I filled this guys tank up and marked the km's down and told him to come by for a fill up when he get's the 800 km warning. Then we shall see if this guy is just pulling my chain.}

[DieselD]

Bruce I remember our local training center preaching about DEF and heat related quality durning my 6.7 class a couple years back. More recently I heard this again from a ford fleet rep. Not saying its correct as we all know ford sometimes can be the biggest misinformation spreading source but this is something they have been teaching.

 

With that said I have seen this happening on our trucks. I buy the motorcraft DEF by the 55gal drum and once Its been in the shop all summer the last 20gals or so goes much quicker. I have guys coming in between oil changes with the low DEF warning on the dash. Typically it has been when I have filled the DEF from a drum thats been in the shop heat longer rather then a fresh drum. Granted I have not had too much time to really test this theory but the heat does seem to affect the life span somehow. The trucks I notice it on are all pretty consistant with the type of work they do so I dont think its related to a odd pattern of idle time or heavy usage.

[Brad Clayton]

 

 

November 7, 2013

To: All Ford and Lincoln Dealers

Subject: Conditions affecting Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) Shelf Life and Fluid Quality

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) was launched in Dealer Letter dated 12/17/2009. DEF is required for the 2011 and forward diesel vehicles to meet 2010 EPA emission regulations. DEF is a non-hazardous clear fluid (67% deionized water / 33% chemically pure Urea) that is injected into the diesel exhaust system to reduce NOx emissions.

Since the launch of this new product, we have received several questions on the shelf life and fluid quality for DEF. The following communication provides clarification and guidelines on DEF and the proper storage levels to maintain the chemical concentrations advertised on the label.

DEF INVENTORY STORAGE LEVELS

 If a climate controlled facility is available, for maximum shelf life, store between 68F (20C) and 23 F (-5C).

 Store DEF out of direct sunlight. If DEF is stored outside it must be shaded from the sun.

 Store DEF below 86F (30C), if possible and/or in the coolest part of the storage facility. If storing DEF below 86 F (30C) is not feasible, the inventory needs to be managed accordingly.

 For periods when DEF will be exposed to average daily temperatures that will exceed 95F (35C), inventory should be kept to a minimum. Do not purchase more product than will remain in inventory beyond the shelf life shown in the chart if average daily temperatures will continually exceed those shown in the chart below.

 DEF will freeze below 12 F (-11C). Do not store outside or in a facility where the temperature will drop below 23F (-5C).

 Shelf life should be based on the period of time past the date code on the bottle. The date code is formatted as MMDDYY (i.e. 022810 = February 28, 2010).

 The issue with selling DEF that is beyond its shelf life is the possibility of selling the customer a product that does not meet what is advertised on the label.

The table below shows shelf life for DEF continuously exposed to these temperatures for the entire period. Cycles where the maximum daily temperature is similar to what is shown below will have longer shelf life than shown. Shelf life for product in inventory should be based on the average daily temperature not the day's maximum temperature.

 

DEF Shelf Life versus Temperature Constant Ambient Storage

Temperature

Shelf Life

In Months

≤0 °F (10°C)

36

<77 °F (25°C)

18

≤86 °F (30°C)

12

≤95 °F (35°C)

6

<104°F (40°C)

2

 

 

EXAMPLE: In 2009 the two hottest months in Phoenix Arizona were July and August. The average temperature for both months was 95F (35C), according to the data from the National Weather Service. The average daily temperatures for these months ranged from 104F (40C) to 85F (29C), while for

some days daily highs reached 115F (46C). For areas that see these average temperatures DEF shelf life would be 6 months.

DISPENSING NOZZLE

 Available for Motorcraft DEF is a nozzle that will allow the operator to add DEF to the tank while minimizing contamination, spilling and over filling.

 Nozzles can be reused but should be properly stored between fillings. Nozzles come in a resealable plastic bag and should be rinsed with clean water before being stored in it’s re-sealable plastic bag.

 The DEF nozzle should not be used for other chemicals, like oil, coolant, etc.

VEHICLES CONTAINING DEF

DEF in a vehicle is still acceptable for vehicle consumption even if the vehicle has been exposed to temperatures above 86 F (30C). For the same reasons stated above, at these temperatures, urea concentration will remain reasonably stable.

 DEF in vehicles is susceptible to the same degradation as in containers.

 The SCR (selective catalytic reduction) system has been calibrated to function properly with urea concentrations different than 32%. The only consequence of operating with a urea concentration less than 32% is faster consumption.

 DEF that has degraded beyond the point for the calibration to compensate will set off a warning on the instrument panel (refer to the diesel supplement in the owner guide).

 Unless there is a warning light on the instrument panel there is no reason to consider draining the DEF from the tank simply due to age of the DEF. However, it is highly unlikely the warning would be caused by aged DEF and normal diagnostics should be followed.

 DEF freezing in the vehicle tank will not cause any problems as long as the tank is not over filled. The vehicle is equipped with a heater to thaw frozen DEF when the vehicle is started and then the system will function normally.

LARGE CONTAINERS OF DEF

Large containers, 55 gallon drums and 275 gallon totes are affected by temperature the same as described above for containers. Shelf life should be estimated using the temperature chart. Due to the mass of fluid, the temperature fluctuations may not be as great as smaller containers.

 Refilling of Motorcraft drums and totes is not an acceptable practice and bulk DEF is not available from Motorcraft

 Fluid in drums and totes are more susceptible to contamination since at times the container will be open to the atmosphere and dispensing equipment will be removed and installed

 Minimize the time the bung hole is left open

 Be sure the dispensing equipment is clean before inserting it into the drum or tote

DEF DISPENSING EQUIPMENT FOR LARGE CONTAINERS

Use the proper dispensing equipment that is specifically made for DEF.

 Dispensing equipment must be made of stainless steel or plastic compatible with urea (ie, polyethylene, polypropylene, etc. See ISO22241-3).

 DEF is corrosive to most metals.

 The use of dispensing equipment made of materials incompatible with DEF, like used for coolant or oil dispensing equipment, will corrode and contaminate the DEF and the equipment will eventually malfunction.

 DEF Dispensing equipment is available through Rotunda (order on the web through PTS by clicking on Rotunda or by calling 1-800-ROTUNDA and select option #2).

 

 

[Bruce Amacker]

Yep, that's the letter I was referring to.  Very few of us have temps like it refers to, and definitely not Mutter. The bottle of DEF that I have is dated May 14, 2009 and it still tests out at 32-33%.  It's been stored in an unheated building over 4 years.

 

[DieselD]

Thanks for the letter brad. I fall under the phx area temps and I can tell you average is at least 95* during those months. That could explain the extra consumtion of my drum after its been in the heat for a few months.

[vloney]

Our dealership car hauler came back from FLA. (dealer principal has a house down there), and he was complaining about 10 gallons in 800 miles. Does that count? Replacing the FPCV fixed it. After the flush of all fuel components.