Shlep Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Have you eliminated the Banks system to verify it's not the culprit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Stupid question. Is the CMP sensor fastened to the block with the original bolt? You didn't happen to drop the bolt and replace it with one slightly longer (causing the CMP not to seat fully into the block) did you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezul Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 My friend, I ordered one new bolt for the crank sensor. I needed easy outs to get that bolt out. The package came as a pack of four so I used a second bolt and replaced the cam sensor bolt with a new one as well. Im still thinking cam bearings but then again Im still drunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezul Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Donny the banks system has been completely eliminated.... That was pretty much something I eliminated right off the bat. I have had three previous trucks where elimination of the chip resolves all sync issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlep Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Ok, let me check my notes here and get back to this later, I've run across something like this before and can't remember the cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezul Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 http://deezul.imgur.com/sync_issues So the cam bearing idea was pretty far fetched and now that I had an oppurtunity to use the silly scope again I grabed these six patterns. My dvom doesnt have a fast enough sampling rate for the cam sensor hence why I wasnt getting any frequency reading. If RFI was an issue would my patterns look like this? I would expect to see more of an erratic signal. From the CAM sensor pattern the peak sometimes looks wonky (only the peak) leading me to think issue with pick up on CAM not an RFI issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlep Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Ok here's what I've got in the old notes. If you have sync, the indicates the PCM is seeing both the Cam and Crank sensors and timing is acceptable, however if you're mising FICM sync one would first assume you would be missing the signal between the PCM and the FICM. Now that maybe wrong but from what I can recall it's correct. Now when the fault occours, do you have a CMP_F pid reading a fault is present? If not I would venture to say the CMP signal is good and the PCM can see it. Also when the no start concern is present, can you see a cranking RPM? I realize you have no known test units handy but it sure would be helpful right about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezul Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Signal from the PCM to the FICM should be good (assuming PCM is good, was never able to obtain an early model PCM), the harness is new. According to those silly scope patterns I graphed and posted, tech line believes that there is an issue with the pick up on the CAM sensor (the peak of the cam signal had a slight "switch back" and the intensity isn't quite where it should be) according to tech line... I was finally able to obtain a borescope thin enough to inspect the pick up on the CAM. The peg was covered in a coating of sludgey almost tar like oil. Lots of "coking" around the peg with this substance. I blasted some brake clean into the hole and had to stab away at the peg with a coat hanger, finally was able to get it cleaned up. Haven't had a no start issue since. Lack of maintenance. I'm very skeptical this is the actual fix....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Signal from the PCM to the FICM should be good (assuming PCM is good, was never able to obtain an early model PCM), the harness is new. According to those silly scope patterns I graphed and posted, tech line believes that there is an issue with the pick up on the CAM sensor (the peak of the cam signal had a slight "switch back" and the intensity isn't quite where it should be) according to tech line... I was finally able to obtain a borescope thin enough to inspect the pick up on the CAM. The peg was covered in a coating of sludgey almost tar like oil. Lots of "coking" around the peg with this substance. I blasted some brake clean into the hole and had to stab away at the peg with a coat hanger, finally was able to get it cleaned up. Haven't had a no start issue since. Lack of maintenance. I'm very skeptical this is the actual fix....... I doubt sludge on the pin would make any difference in the signal. The double peak on your waveforms looks like low cranking speed, it should be 175+ cold, 215 warm. The waveforms look identical to my known good samples otherwise. Here's my "Sync" notes: CRANK NO START with NO SYNC or NO FICMSYNC PIDs on 6.0L Diesel Some 03-07 6.0L-equipped vehicles may experience a crank no start, a runs rough concern or stalling with cam or crank sensor codes. Viewing the SYNC and FICMSYNC PIDs in Datalogger will help diagnose this issue. The SYNC PID will show Yes when the CKP and CMP signals are synchronized to the PCM. The FICMSYNC PID will show Yes when the CKPO and CMPO signals are synchronized to the FICM. Symptoms from a loss of SYNC or FICMSYNC or erratic SYNC or FICMSYNC can include: • Crank no start with SYNC No and FICMSYNC No. • Crank no start with SYNC Yes and FICMSYNC No. • Crank no start with SYNC No and FICMSYNC Yes. • Crank no start with erratic SYNC or FICM SYNC switching from No to Yes. • Vehicle stalling, running rough or missing with SYNC or FICM SYNC switching from Yes to No. For any of these issues, follow the diagnostics listed below. The PCM needs both cam and crank signals to produce a SYNC=Yes. If SYNC=No with a P2614 or P2617, there is most likely a fault with the associated sensor or circuit. Note: If there are any CAM or Crank codes stored in PCM, run the PPT for those codes before continuing with this procedure. A bad sensor or circuit should be able to be isolated with the appropriate PPT. Possible Causes: • Bad cam sensor • Bad crank sensor • Signal short to power • Signal short to ground • Open circuit • PCM • FICM • Cam (CMP) Gear or Pin • Crankshaft (CKP) Tone Wheel Note: The RPM PID can be a good quick indicator or CKP wheel wobble or slop. The RPM PID can read erratically when there is wobble or slop. The scope will also show this issue with variations in CKP signal amplitude. This signal should be fairly consistent at a steady RPM with the exception of the missing tooth. The IDS oscilloscope is the most accurate device available to check for this type of concern. If there is no oscilloscope available, you can use a DVOM with HZ and Vac settings but it is not as accurate and an oscilloscope is highly recommended. The oscilloscope diagnostics and setup are below. Oscilloscope Diagnostic Procedure for CKP and CMP This will check both the crank (CKP) and cam (CMP) signals into the PCM. Note: The easiest way but not the only way to access the PCM signals is to use a 104 Pin Break-Out-Box (BOB) and an adapter T sold by Rotunda (1-800-ROTUNDA) attached to the middle (46-Pin) connector on the PCM. This allows for easy access to all signals. Oscilloscope Channel Setup: • Select Oscilloscope Tools and then Oscilloscope from the IDS toolbox. • Connect the VMM to the vehicle and the computer to the VMM as shown in the hookup. • Connect the red probe to C1 on the VMM and then into pin 30, and the black probe to C2 on the VMM and then into pin 31 of the middle PCM connector (1381c), (176c for E-Series). Go to the next step if using a BOB. (You can leave the connector unplugged from the PCM and just probe into the connector. The engine will still crank). Use the IDS probe kit for cranking signals or the IDS Universal probe (T-015) can be used for running engine signals leaving c1381c or 176c connected. • Select channel one Auto, then CKP-6.OL Diesel and go the next step (If auto is not available select Manual, Red Probe, 5volts/div, or 20 ms/div if the engine will start). • Select channel two Auto, then CMP-6.OL diesel and go to next step (If auto is not available select Manual, Black Probe, 500mvolts/div and 100ms/div time-base settings). If the engine will start, change only the time-base to 100ms/dv. Move the channel two trigger approximately half a division vertically up and about three divisions right horizontally. • Turn the key to on with the engine off and then select Trigger, Type, one Shot and then select the Red Man to turn the scope on. The Red Man will turn to a Green Running Man with the test “Waiting for trigger” in the status area below the signal display. If One Shot is already running when you key up, One Shot will have to be restarted because an unwanted waveform will be captured from the key state change. • Open the oscilloscope screen to full and crank or start the engine • One Shot will capture the waveforms automatically. (Turn One Shot off to view the signals live). • The yellow signal is the CKP and the green signal is the CMP. If CKP and CMP look similar to what is shown below then continue with the rest of diagnosis otherwise stop here and fix the problem signal. • If the scope does not trigger, reset the trigger points on the second channel and verify that the connections at the PCM connector are solid. If it still won’t trigger, then there is no signal getting to the scope. Oscilloscope Diagnostic Procedure for CKPO and CMPO Oscilloscope Channel Setup: • Select Oscilloscope Tools and then Oscilloscope from the IDS toolbox. • Connect the VMM to the vehicle and the computer to the VMM as shown in the hookup. • Connect the red probe to the C1 on the VMM and then into pin 19, and the black probe to C2 on the VMM and then into pin 20 of the middle PCM connector (1381c), (175c for E-Series). (You can leave the connector unplugged from the PCM and just probe into the connector. The engine will still crank). Use the IDS probe kit for cranking signals or the IDS Universal probes (T-015) can be used for running engine signals leaving c1381c connected. • Select channel one Auto, then CKPO-Diesel 6.0L (or Manual, Red Probe, 5 volts/div, 20ms/div for an engine that will start. • Select channel two Auto, then CMPO-Diesel 6.0L (or Manual, Black Probe, 5 volts/div, 20ms/div for an engine that will start) or 100ms/div for an engine that will only crank. • Turn the key to on with the engine off and select Trigger, Type, One Shot and then select the Red Man to turn the scope on. The Red Man will turn to a Green Running Man with the text “Waiting for trigger” in the status area below the signal display. If One Shot is already running when you key up, One Shot will have to be restarted because an unwanted waveform will be captured from the key state change. • Open the oscilloscope screen to full and crank or start the engine. • One shot will capture the waveforms automatically. (Turn One Shot off to view the signals live). • The red signal is the CKPO and the blue signal is the CMPO. (The signal colors will be orange and red when using channels one and two) Note: Focus on the relationship between CKPO and CMPO. Both CKPO and CMPO signals could be present and valid, but the FICMSYNC could still read NO. If the signals are out of time with each other, check to see if the crankshaft tone ring has slipped on the crank and also to see if the camshaft pin or gear has loosened on the camshaft. Those are the most likely causes for the FICMSYNC signal to be out of time. See screen shot below for proper relationship. Note: All four signals can be viewed at the same time using all four ports on the VMM but to simplify the explanation of the hookup instructions, ports 1 and 2 (red and black probe) are discussed in this write-up. If using all four channels, you would need to use the ignition probes for the VMM and set the channel to A, B, C, or D depending on which probe you use. DVOM Diagnostic Procedure (Only if an oscilloscope is not available) Note: Only use this procedure if an oscilloscope is not available. The data can be a lot harder to interpret using a DVOM. Cranks NO Start: SYNC=No and/or FICM SYC=No NOTE: Before starting the following diagnostics, remove the driver side battery and cover up the positive battery cable head to prevent arcing. Procedure for SYNC=NO with no, low or erratic RPM (possible p2617) • Disconnect the center connector from the PCM (1381c), (176c for E-Series) • Set the DVOM to frequency to take a HZ reading, can also set it to A/C volts. • A valid HZ reading is 150 to 190HZ and be steady. The A/C voltage should be at least .6 volts and steady as well. • If there are no, low, or erratic readings then check the CKP sensor and wiring per pinpoint test D8. If there is a valid reading then go to the next procedure below. Procedure for SYNC=NO with RPM (possible p2614) • Disconnect the center connector from the PCM (1381c), (176c for E-Series). • To check the CMP signal, hook up a DVOM to pins 31 and 43 of the 1381c or 176c connector. • Set the DVOM to frequency to take a HZ reading. You can also set it to A/C volts. • A valid HZ reading is around 1.1 to 1.6 HZ. If checking A/C volts, the voltage will fluctuate and it should go over 1 volt as it fluctuates. • If there is no or a low reading, check the CMP sensor and wiring per pinpoint test V4. If the sensor and circuit check out, remove the sensor and inspect the end for signs of the cam pin striking it. If it is damaged then the cam pin has backed out and struck the sensor and the camshaft needs to be replaced. • If the cam and crank sensors and circuits all check out or have been replaced and still SYNC=No, replace the PCM and retest. NOTE: The readings on the DVOM from the CMP will fluctuate a lot, because there is only one timing peg that comes around for every two engine revolutions. Procedure for SYNC = YES and FICM SYNC = NO Note: If SYNC=YES, it only means that there is good cam and crank signals to the PCM. If there is a wire issue between the PCM and FICM or if the signals are out of time, the FICM SYNC will be NO or may intermittently jump from YES to NO. • The center connector of the PCM will have to be connected. • While cranking the engine over, make sure that the FICM V and FICM L powers are above 10.5 volts and the FICM M power is around 48 volts at all times. • The pins 19 and 20 of the center PCM connector 1381c or 176c will have to be back probed. • Pin 19 is the CKPO circuit. To check it, set the DVOM to HZ and connect it from the pin 19 to ground. The HZ signal should match the CKP reading of around 150-190 HZ. • Pin 20 is the CMPO circuit. To check it, set the DVOM to HZ and connect it from the pin 20 to ground. The HZ signal should match the CMP reading of around 1.1 to 1.6. • If there are incorrect readings at either pin, run through the SYNC tests above for the appropriate output sensor (CKP or CMP) before replacing the PCM. • If there are correct readings at both pins at the PCM connector, pins 5 and 10 of the FICM connector 1388c will have to be back probed. • Pin 5 is the CKPO circuit (150-190 HZ) and pin 10 is the CMPO circuit (1.1-1.6HZ). Repeat the steps listed above. All readings should be the same at the PCM and the FICM connectors. • If there are no or low readings at the FICM connector, there is a wire problem between the PCM and the FICM. If there is a valid HZ reading at both CMPO and CKPO pins into the FICM, check all powers/grounds at the FICM and if good, try a known good FICM and retest. NOTE: Mechanical timing issues can only be diagnosed after all of the above diagnostics have been performed. If all of the above diagnostics have been performed and there is still a FICM SYNC issue, then there is a mechanical timing concern. The two parts of the engine that can cause timing issues are the crankshaft tone wheel and/or the crank gear. • If the vehicle is a crank no start and has timing concerns with the tone wheel, then usually the scan tool will not complete a relative compression test with a SYNC error. • If the vehicle starts and runs rough the FICM SYNC concerns go to the power balance function and click on the enhanced button (has a # symbol on it). If the engine smooths out, there is a tone wheel concern. • If the vehicle will start only off of an alternative fuel source (silicone spray) and then runs fine, there is likely a cam gear concern. NOTE: The tone wheel is located in the crankcase and is pressed onto the crankshaft. Therefore, to inspect it for looseness or damage, the oil pan will need to be removed. If the tone wheel is damaged or loose, the crankshaft needs to be replaced. • Before starting the following diagnostics, remove the driver side battery and cover up the positive battery cable lead to prevent arcing. Procedure for SYNC = no WITH NO rpm (possible p2617) • Disconnect the center connector from the PCM (1381c), (186c for E-series). • To check the CKP signal, hook up a DVOM to pins 30 (CKP+) and 41 (CKP-) of the 1381c or 176c connector. • Set the DVOM to frequency to take a HZ reading or set the DVOM to Vac and look at AC volts. • A valid HZ reading will be around 600 HZ and will fluctuate higher and lower. The AC voltage should be around 3 volts and will also fluctuate. • If there are no readings then check the CKP sensor and wiring per pinpoint test D8. If there is a valid reading then go the next procedure below. • Reference the 6.01 oscilloscope setup document. Procedure for SYNC = NO with RPM (possible p2614) • Disconnect the center connector from the PCM (1381c), (176c for E-Series). • To check the CMO signal, hook up a DVOM to pins 31 and 43 of the 1381c or 176c connector. • Set the DVOM to frequency to take a HZ reading, can also set it to A/C volts. • A valid HZ reading is around 1.1 to 1.6 HZ. The A/C voltage will fluctuate and it should go over 1 volt as it fluctuates. • If there is no reading, then check the CMP sensor and wiring per pinpoint test V4. If the sensor and circuit check out, remove the sensor and inspect the end for signs of the cam pin striking it. If it has, then the cam pin has backed out and the camshaft needs to be replaced. • If the cam and crank sensors and circuits all check out and still no sync, replace the PCM and retest. • The signal is best checked with the oscilloscope. Reference the 6.01 o-scope setup document. Note: The readings on the DVOM from the CMP will fluctuate a lot, because there is only one timing peg that comes around for every two engine revolutions. Procedure for SYNC = YES and FICMSYNC = NO Note: If SYNC=YES, it only means that there is a good cam and crank signal to the PCM. If there is a wire issue between the PCM and FICM or if the signals are out of time, the FICM SYNC will be NO or may intermittently jump fro YES to NO. • The center connector of the PCM will have to be connected. • While cranking, make sure that the FICM_V and FICM_L powers are above 10.5 volts and the FICM_M power is around 48 volts at all times. • The pins 19 and 20 of the center PCM connector 1381c or 176c will have to be back probed. • Pin 19 is the CKPO circuit. To check it, set the DVOM to HZ and connect it from the pin 19 to ground. The HZ signal should match the CKP reading of around 150-190 HZ. • Pin 20 is the CMPO circuit. To check it, set the DVOM to HZ and connect it from the pin 20 to ground. The HZ signal should match the CMP reading of around 1.1 to 1.6. • If there are incorrect readings at either pin, run through the SYNC tests above for the appropriate output sensor (CKP or CMO) before replacing the PCM. • If there are correct readings at both pins at the PCM connector, pins 5 and 10 of the FICM connector 1388c will have to be back probed. • Pin 5 is the CKPO circuit and pin 10 in CMPO circuit. Repeat the steps listed above. All readings should be the same at the PCM and the FICM connectors. • If there are not readings at the FICM connector, there is a wire problem. If there is a valid HZ reading at both CMPO and CKPO pins into the FICM, replace the FICM. Using a scan tool, verify the SYNC PID says YES when the engine is running. SYNC is mostly from the CKP sensor. It is possible to have NO CMP signal and still show YES for SYNC! No SYNC and no RPM signal is usually a CKP problem. No SYNC with an RPM signal may be the CMP. I have heard of 2 that gave CMP/CKP synch error codes. One was a wiped crank thrust bearing that let the crank walk forward and back causing the codes. Another was a loose crank trigger wheel on the front of the crank- tough diag!Check the RPM PID while running and see if it looks erratic, and check end play in the crank. One of the DTS members had a DM flywheel causing Sync problems (early manual trans). Diagnose SYNC problems first FICM SYNC should read YES KOER. The FICM SYNC circuit relays info from the PCM to the FICM through 2 wiring circuits, CKPO and CMPO. FICM SYNC problems can be a bad CKP, CMP (electrical or mechanical), PCM, FICM, or harness. Change SYNC and FICM sync into a bar graph and check it for being erratic. Both Syncs change to YES while cranking, but FICM SYNC is first. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezul Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Thank you so very much Bruce for the information, kinda wish I had that a bit earlier though Thanks to everyone else as well (especially Mike), this truck was a battle but now that I have a good grasp on SYNC and FICM_SYNC I hope this battle won't happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 You know I was wondering about that double peak. It appears to get more pronounced with each snapshot which fits with slow cranking speed due to draining batteries. I have not seen that before with any of my use of the scope. Thanks for pointing that out Bruce. Perhaps it would be a good practice to have a battery charger hooked up while performing this test similar to performing compression tests? Could a battery charger affect the scope readings though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I was finally able to obtain a borescope thin enough to inspect the pick up on the CAM. The peg was covered in a coating of sludgey almost tar like oil. Lots of "coking" around the peg with this substance. I blasted some brake clean into the hole and had to stab away at the peg with a coat hanger, finally was able to get it cleaned up. Haven't had a no start issue since. Lack of maintenance. I'm very skeptical this is the actual fix....... At this point, I would be wondering what the condition of the rest of the parts are like, particularly the injectors. We all know how much those HUEI injectors love a lack of oil changes. If there is sludge on the cam peg, I would also wonder about the crank trigger wheel as well. How well does this engine run, otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 kinda wish I had that a bit earlier though I'm "usually" quick to respond but your original post was on Jan 4, the day I had surgery...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 You know I was wondering about that double peak. It appears to get more pronounced with each snapshot which fits with slow cranking speed due to draining batteries. I have not seen that before with any of my use of the scope. Thanks for pointing that out Bruce. Perhaps it would be a good practice to have a battery charger hooked up while performing this test similar to performing compression tests? Could a battery charger affect the scope readings though? 1. Only charge batteries that are low, and beware of the charge rate so you don't toast them. The output of a charger is enough to charge batteries but not spin a diesel with low batteries. Just make sure your batteries are good and RPM is acceptable. Having a pair of known good batteries on a "jump cart" hooked up is a good idea. 2. Never have the charger on while doing scope tests, it causes way too much stray EMI/RFI/noise. Frequently even having a 110v droplight nearby is enough to really screw up your waveforms! I know high end trainers that will not have a 110v cord within 20 feet of the car while they are scoping. I've seen it plenty of times, it's no joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Never have the charger on while doing scope tests, it causes way too much stray EMI/RFI/noise. Frequently even having a 110v droplight nearby is enough to really screw up your waveforms! I know high end trainers that will not have a 110v cord within 20 feet of the car while they are scoping. I've seen it plenty of times, it's no joke. That is what I wanted to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezul Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 I'm "usually" quick to respond but your original post was on Jan 4, the day I had surgery...... No worries Bruce, just glad everything went well with your operation! It makes me laugh that not one "hotline helper" had suggested that the "switchback" on the oscilliscope was possibly due to the fact of weak batteries...next time using the oscilliscope I will have the battery cart hooked up to the truck. This was the first time seing this truck and we have no history on it. No oil change sticker in the window and the oil looked like crap. It sure had some stiction issues when left out in the cold last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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