Late-build '04 F-450 4x2 Dump Weird Issue

mchan68 · March 3, 2011

Okay guys, I need your input on this one. I think by now I consider myself pretty good at fixing most 6.0L issues but this particular one has me scratching my head so here it goes.

Vehicle is a late-build 2004 F-450 Dump Box with 115,000 kms. This thing came towed in because it crapped out on the owner and unable to restart the engine. The story goes, when he tried to restart the engine "it sounded funny". The next day, after it sat on our lot, when the owner came in to retrieve some things from it, it started up no problem. When I got to it, the only DTCs set are P0528 and P0678 (the fan clutch is a little lazy), but I doubt these have anything remotely to do with the issue. So, off I go on a rodeo with it (with IDS hooked up along with my favourite 6.0L PIDs up). Truck drives fine with lots of power (other than EOT being higher than it should be) up until I get it back onto dealer property, the thing stalls. When I attempt to restart the engine, it sputters farts and sneezes and sounds like the engine has no compression cranking at about 240 RPM (which explains his "it sounded funny" description). As I'm doing this, the only PIDs that seem wonky are ICP_DES indicate 0psi, while ICP psi stays frozen at 689 psi, ICP volts are at 0.89 volts and IPR duty cycle dips to 13.97% (lower than the default 14.84% KOEO duty cycle). FICM_SYNC and SYNC remain at YES, FICM voltages are where they need to be, and the fuel pump is humming away. Remember, the above PIDs are what I saw while attempting to restart the engine. Unplug the ICP sensor and the truck fires back up as normal (with the PID indicating the default 870 psi momentarily and then returning back to the normal 580 psi at idle within seconds).

Here's a little history of this truck. This truck has always been serviced at my dealer (with the exception of a head gasket job done at an indy shop back in Dec. of 2009 at 96,000 kms.) and the customer is a money spender. In the last couple of years, it has had the y-pipe and FICM replaced, an ICP sensor just recently (to address an intermittent surging issue), a fuel pump (at the customer's request), along with the updated fuel pressure regulator spring. Looking through the invoice the customer gave us, it looks as though the indy shop replaced the EGR cooler (but no oil cooler which likely explains the high EOT temps).

As it now stands, I know it needs an oil cooler and a fan clutch, but I would like to pinpoint what's issue described above before proceeding further. It is also venting coolant big time (despite having a head gasket job done 20,000 kms. ago). Not that it really matters, but does anyone recognize part number HS54450 (head gasket set)? Both the advisor and the owner of the truck want me to throw an FQR engine in it, but I don't feel right doing this. Anyone else have any ideas?

Bruce Amacker · March 3, 2011

I agree, if the guy has been great with maintenance during his 71K miles I'd be more inclined to repair this engine than rolling the dice on an FQR.

When I attempt to restart the engine, it sputters farts and sneezes and sounds like the engine has no compression cranking at about 240 RPM (which explains his "it sounded funny" description).

As far as what's causing the "weird crank" I might suspect the HP oil is at that threshold where the PCM has enabled the injectors (.89v) and fuel is being delivered, but not enough to light the motor and run properly. Can you recreate this "odd sounding" cranking problem? Plug a homemade injector test light into the harness and see if it blinks. Does it have a throttle plate? I've heard of throttle plates sticking closed causing freaky no-starts from lack of compression. IIRC, the PCM cycles the EGRTP on KOEO to exercise it. If it sticks, you have a no start with no compression and don't know why. Pull the snorkel and physically watch it operate.

As I'm doing this, the only PIDs that seem wonky are ICP_DES indicate 0psi, while ICP psi stays frozen at 689 psi, ICP volts are at 0.89 volts and IPR duty cycle dips to 13.97% (lower than the default 14.84% KOEO duty cycle).

Forget the ICP pressure PID, it's virtually useless when diagnosing a screwed up HP system. Was ICPV KOEO where it is supposed to be? (.17-.24v is what I use) The .89v cranking is considerably lower than where it should be cranking at 240RPM, I'd expect to see 1.5v or so, maybe even more. I have seen bad ICP sensors piss off the PCM and cause a really low IPR command with no DTCs, so I'd start there. (http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/forums/ubb...h=true#Post7102)

I'd probably warranty the ICP for him and replace the pigtail to play it safe.

If you get past this, do your basic EGR cooler/HG diags, pressure test the cooling system, manually command the VGT up and down, blah, blah, blah, to determine head gasket/EGR leakage and verify his coolant problem. If the fan were inop would it cause this problem in the winter?

I think the HS number is a Victor head set supplied by Carquest.

If I think of more I'll edit this post.

Good Luck!

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mchan68 · March 3, 2011

I agree, if the guy has been great with maintenance during his 71K miles I'd be more inclined to repair this engine than rolling the dice on an FQR.
My point exactly. As it stands, the customer (and advisor) wants me to jettison an FQR along with engine and FICM harnesses at it (at whatever labour hours I want) to get him rolling because he appears more concerned about down time than cost of repair, which seems like a HUGE overkill to me.

Originally Posted By: Bruce Amacker

When I attempt to restart the engine, it sputters farts and sneezes and sounds like the engine has no compression cranking at about 240 RPM (which explains his "it sounded funny" description).

As far as what's causing the "weird crank" I might suspect the HP oil is at that threshold where the PCM has enabled the injectors (.89v) and fuel is being delivered, but not enough to light the motor and run properly. Can you recreate this "odd sounding" cranking problem?

Yes, only ONCE as I indicated in the post above. I guess the best way to describe the way it sounded when cranking it, is the way it would sound when you crank it the first time after you have just re-assembled the heads onto the engine (before the head gaskets "settle") before it fires up. I've already wasted an hour and a half farting around with it this morning, unable to re-create yesterday's events.

Originally Posted By: Bruce Amacker

Plug a homemade injector test light into the harness and see if it blinks. Does it have a throttle plate? I've heard of throttle plates sticking closed causing freaky no-starts from lack of compression. IIRC, the PCM cycles the EGRTP on KOEO to exercise it. If it sticks, you have a no start with no compression and don't know why. Pull the snorkel and physically watch it operate.

Funny you mention this Bruce, I had already thought of this because I had remembered one that came in on the hook a couple years back that was originally an oil patch truck before it ended up on my doorstep. This one had one of those BS aftermarket positive air block-offs stuck closed. Remove BS aftermarket equipment and replace factory cold side CAC tube easily repaired that one. But, if there were issues with the EGR TP, wouldn't I have saw a P0487 and/or P0488 at least in memory?

Originally Posted By: Bruce Amacker

As I'm doing this, the only PIDs that seem wonky are ICP_DES indicate 0psi, while ICP psi stays frozen at 689 psi, ICP volts are at 0.89 volts and IPR duty cycle dips to 13.97% (lower than the default 14.84% KOEO duty cycle).

Forget the ICP pressure PID, it's virtually useless when diagnosing a screwed up HP system. Was ICPV KOEO where it is supposed to be? (.17-.24v is what I use) The .89v cranking is considerably lower than where it should be cranking at 240RPM, I'd expect to see 1.5v or so, maybe even more. I have seen bad ICP sensors piss off the PCM and cause a really low IPR command with no DTCs, so I'd start there. (http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/forums/ubb...h=true#Post7102)

I'd probably warranty the ICP for him and replace the pigtail to play it safe.

If you get past this, do your basic EGR cooler/HG diags, pressure test the cooling system, manually command the VGT up and down, blah, blah, blah, to determine head gasket/EGR leakage and verify his coolant problem. If the fan were inop would it cause this problem in the winter?

You know, that sounds almost like what I would be leaning toward. Thanks for your input Bruce.

Bruce Amacker · March 3, 2011

But, if there were issues with the EGR TP, wouldn't I have saw a P0487 and/or P0488 at least in memory?

I remember Dieselmann Charles Ledger saying he saw this with no DTCs causing a no-start. It wouldn't be the first time I saw a hard fault with no frigging trouble code..... Posted Image

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mchan68 · March 3, 2011

Originally Posted By: mchan68

But, if there were issues with the EGR TP, wouldn't I have saw a P0487 and/or P0488 at least in memory?

I remember Dieselmann Charles Ledger saying he saw this with no DTCs causing a no-start. It wouldn't be the first time I saw a hard fault with no frigging trouble code.....

Agreed. And it seems only logical that an engine cranking without any compression (or appearing to sound like it) and then "fixing itself" afterwards could only be caused by an exhaust or intake restriction, but the fact that the ICP PIDs went wonky like that when it happened is what had me scratching my head. Does anyone know if the EGR throttle plate and the ICP sensor circuit are tied together in any way? It just seems funny that unplugging the ICP sensor was what enabled me to restart the engine, and then plugging it in after the engine was started, saw no reaction on the part of the engine.

Jim Warman · March 4, 2011

First..... if the customer says "replace the engine, I don't want to fart around with this one and I want to get back to work "FOR SURE" as soon as possible", what is the problem? A lot of these guys have 10 other owners waiting for them to not show up for work one day too many - contract gone...

Why would I force my customer into wanting less? If he wants less than he needs, I'll be the first to check him up on it.... If he wants more than he needs, I'll investigate his motive before I try to downsell him..... Tread carefully. Too big a bill is a discomfort. Too much downtime can make a man bankrupt.

Now... that "BS aftermarket air shut off" (and I think I remember this truck from some other issues) might be something required by WCB and/or insurance coverage... Just because we cannot appreciate the importance of something doesn't make it BS. FWIW, positive air shut offs have been around in one form or another since the 1950s. We are paid quite handsomely to install them. Not having one can have the effect of keeping many owners at home rather than on a jobsite.

As it stands... you have an undisclosed amount of time into something you have yet to diagnose and a customer that has asked for a specific course of action he is more than willing to pay for..... Another shop has performed, somewhat recently, an extremely intrusive repair...

Am I missing something?

mchan68 · March 4, 2011

First..... if the customer says "replace the engine, I don't want to fart around with this one and I want to get back to work "FOR SURE" as soon as possible", what is the problem? A lot of these guys have 10 other owners waiting for them to not show up for work one day too many - contract gone...
Point well taken. For me, it just seems highly sacrilegious to "throw away" an engine that I don't see a problem with (other than a restricted oil cooler accoding to EOT temps). It drives fine, other than the one event that occured to me when returning from my brief road test.

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

Why would I force my customer into wanting less? If he wants less than he needs, I'll be the first to check him up on it.... If he wants more than he needs, I'll investigate his motive before I try to downsell him..... Tread carefully. Too big a bill is a discomfort. Too much downtime can make a man bankrupt.

Jim, I'm not trying to "force" the customer into wanting less. I have my pride when it comes to fixing vehicles, but before I'm about to throw in a $13,000 engine into this thing, I would certainly like to have a damn good reason for doing it, at the present monent for which I DON'T.

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

Now... that "BS aftermarket air shut off" (and I think I remember this truck from some other issues) might be something required by WCB and/or insurance coverage... Just because we cannot appreciate the importance of something doesn't make it BS. FWIW, positive air shut offs have been around in one form or another since the 1950s. We are paid quite handsomely to install them. Not having one can have the effect of keeping many owners at home rather than on a jobsite.

I'm well aware of the purpose of positive air shut-offs and where that particular vehicle came from originally, and why it was installed originally. The only reason I called it "BS aftermarket junk" was simply because it caused a no-start issue when it landed on my doorstep. And since it was not owned at the time (vehicle was just purchased by some small used vehicle lot and sent to us to repair), the simple solution was to remove the device and return back to original.

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

As it stands... you have an undisclosed amount of time into something you have yet to diagnose and a customer that has asked for a specific course of action he is more than willing to pay for..... Another shop has performed, somewhat recently, an extremely intrusive repair...

Am I missing something?

You are correct SIR. And this is why I seek the input of other members. The advisor wants me to leave no stone unturned, meaning to price out EVERYTHING that is not included with an FQR to throw at this thing.

Jim Warman · March 4, 2011

Y'know... I composed a lengthy reply to your current message.... and I went back over your initial post - flat rate reading IS one of my specialties...

When you unplugged the ICP sensor, you say the truck started "normally".

Remembering that ICP_PRESS of any kind is a computed value... did you check to see if your ICP was biased - You mention ICP_V at .89 and "frozen"? How long did it take to build ICP when you started cranking the engine, and did you plug the ICP back in to see if the no start returned? If you did and the engine started, did the readings differ?

mchan68 · March 4, 2011

When you unplugged the ICP sensor, you say the truck started "normally".
Yes, that was when the truck crapped out on me just as I was returning from road testing it.

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

Remembering that ICP_PRESS of any kind is a computed value... did you check to see if your ICP was biased - You mention ICP_V at .89 and "frozen"? How long did it take to build ICP when you started cranking the engine, and did you plug the ICP back in to see if the no start returned? If you did and the engine started, did the readings differ?

Originally Posted By: mchan68

It just seems funny that unplugging the ICP sensor was what enabled me to restart the engine, and then plugging it in after the engine was started, saw no reaction on the part of the engine.
Unplugging it saw the reading go to the default 870 psi. Plugging it back in after I was able to restart the engine saw the readings return to the 580 psi and IPR duty cycle of 22%. And I have been unable to recreate that event since. The truck starts and runs fine.