Keith Browning Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Okay so if you have spent any time in ANY other diesel forum you will undoubtedly come across discussions on system cleaning... silicates... scale... coolant filters... coolant types and so on. There are some good points and ideas floating around but after thinking about what I have seen I see VERY little discussion on regular testing and maintenance. It seems that many people are discussing what to do once they have a problem or perceive to have a problem but very little talk about maintenance. You get the common responses of using a filtration system or switching to ELC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Being a 6.0 owner and a frequent reader of diesel message boards I find myself reading about this topic over and over. I have yet to draw a conclusion on the subject. I don't think a coolant filter is a bad idea but I also haven't read any definitive proof that silcates are causing the oil cooler to plug up. Incase anyone is wondering it's speculated that the EGR cooler is causing motorcraft gold coolant to break down and silicates in the coolant are falling out of suspension. This is said to be the reason that the oil cooler is plugging up. I'm not sure exactly where this idea originated or why everyone believes it to be the truth. I'm not using ELC in my truck until someone proves it won't harm anything else. I do believe that motorcraft gold needs to be serviced much more often than the owners manual would have you believe (atleast every 50k) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 And as I understand, International is using a different coolant in their engines. I am also curious as to what the result of that is. They also use coolant filters, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshbuys Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Have one that I'm gonna be putting a coolant filter on, water pump was wasted, guy said it started leaking a while ago, so he put a silicone stop leak in it....now it blew out the bearings in the water pump, and blew the egr cooler....gonna flush her real good and then add the coolant filter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy_M Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Yes, International uses a heavy duty extended life coolant, with the general Cat EC-1 spec. I personally have changed 6.0's back over to conventional green low silicate coolant, but need to remember to change maintainance habits to imclude monitoring and maintaining proper SCA levels with the test strips, and also to the new ELC's. EC-1, (I just refer to it as EC-1 usually, since most HD coolants all refer to the most recognizable Cat spec on the label as well as the ASTM and TMC spec number) is safe with copper, brass, aluminum, stainless, cast, steel, and plastic. All those metals are in use in heavy duty engines, as well as light duty, so I dont see any reason the EC-1 cannot be used in LD vehicles. For several fleets I service, it helps them because it is one less kind of antifreeze they need to keep on hand. From back in college and working parts through college, I was taught high silicate antifreeze in a diesel cooling system was bad, as it would cavitate wet liners easier, not as big of an issue in the LD engines at least, but HD engines were at risk for them. I remember in-framing Cummins 855 Big Cam's and the cavitation on the liners, usually on the side facing towards the exhaust which would pit first. From what I have read thru Valvoline, regarding the gold G-05 coolant, and Cat regarding the EC-1, and other coolant information sources. The nitrite and moly are primarily for the iron part protection, and the silicates are for aluminum/soft metal protection, but can drop out over time and reportedly cause problems. There are other chemicals that were then added to make up for the protection of the soft metals, but without the solids that can drop out over time and cause potential problems. Just as a side note regarding the cavitation issue, I have often thought of mentioning changing the coolant type when there has been issues with recurring cavitation issues with some 6.0/6.4 front covers that I have read on here, but have hesitated due to the controversy that this can generate sometimes. Theres more than enough information out there available thru lab test data, MSDS sheets, sales brochures, and stories from people who have ran different coolants ranging from the random guy on the street who puts on a few thousand miles/year to the big fleets that run dozens of trucks with hundreds of thousands of miles accumulated per year. All one can do is research whats out there, and make an informed decision, keeping in mind initial fill requirements as well as the maintainance requirements of any specific coolant used in an application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Interesting about the cavitation issue too. The worst 6.4 cavitation i've seen was a result of running motorcraft green coolant for several thousand miles (the rad was leaking and the owner just kept filling it with green) obviously green doesn't have the nitrite that gold does and that's why VC-8 is needed. Suprisingly I've never heard about anyone trying ELC in a 6.4, just the 6.0 I'm probably going to do a coolant filter for my truck in the near future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 The timing cover cavitation is a bit of a different situation than the cylinder liner cavitation. A 6.4l can move some seriously large amounts of water and if it is moving more air than water (due to a leaking radiator or whatnot) then it chews up the metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 interesting. I hadn't attributed low coolant level to front cover cavitation before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I have a buddy with a 6.0 that I put a coolant filter on as well as flushed and switched to the cat conventional coolant when new. It has 100,000 mi on it now without plugging an oil cooler or any other coolant related issues. He does flush it every 25,000 mi and changing the filter. As well as testing the sca at every oil change. I do the same on my personal trucks and have had no problems. The cat elc is a good coolant as long as you stay on top of it. If you are going to run it I highly reccomend taking coolant samples and following what the lab says. the most important statement I will make in this reply is this. USE DISTILLED WATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what do you think is in the scuzz ball water that flows out of the garden hose people use to fill the system. The water is JUST as important as the coolant you choose. After all it is half of what is in your cooling system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 Concerning the 6.4L coolant level is as critical as the coolant itself. The front cover cavitation issue and damage to the EGR coolers are no laughing matter. I have a 2009 F450 in with a blown cooler. It was at another dealer about three months ago for a cab off repair and OASIS also shows the radiator has been replaced as well. I guess I am the lucky guy on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselD Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Concerning the 6.4L coolant level is as critical as the coolant itself. The front cover cavitation issue and damage to the EGR coolers are no laughing matter. I have a 2009 F450 in with a blown cooler. It was at another dealer about three months ago for a cab off repair and OASIS also shows the radiator has been replaced as well. I guess I am the lucky guy on this one. presto bent rod or scored cylinder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 if you put the shop's tap water in a white cup you can see it's fucking yellow. I'm sure all that is great for the cooling system we got an 08 in today for suspected front cover cavitation. oil is thick, coolant still okay, coolers/rad/t-stats were all already replaced once oh and the high pressure turbo is out to lunch too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 presto bent rod or scored cylinder! Neither. It runs perfectly and relative compression was all zeros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 The cooler must have been just a little blown then <holds finger to thumb and squints at the gap> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Originally Posted By: DieselD presto bent rod or scored cylinder! Neither. It runs perfectly and relative compression was all zeros. Careful.. The computer will compensate very well for a weak cylinder, and not code until an absurd compensation threshold is reached. Relative compression needs to be run several times in a row to avoid a false pass. Been there before - low contribution on cylinder 8, STFT high on 8, relative compression 0 across the board. Prior approval agreed on an injector, installed and cleared the tables, retest and still had low contribution. Relative compression then started to show low compression on 8 after about 3 passes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 I am well aware of that. There are no fuel trims over 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I find it interesting that if you look up specifications for a 6.0L in a 650/750 the coolant used is Shell Rotella ELC (red) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I find it interesting that if you look up specifications for a 6.0L in a 650/750 the coolant used is Shell Rotella ELC (red) IH specs ELC for most of its engines, and remember the 650/750 is mostly IH.Being that a 650/750 uses a different radiator, front cover, water pump, alloys in these components, and is used in a different way, I can easily see that a different coolant is specified. Didn't a FSE state that they were having more troubles with 550/6.4 front covers than 250/350/6.4 front covers due to the way the trucks are used? I think that the biggest driving force behind all of the coolants these days is the different (aluminum) alloys used to reduce weights and increase fuel economy (CAFE). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbudge Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 You may be aware that Ford has had problems with early Edges plugging heater cores at low milage. The fix was to flush the cooling system and replace the gold coolant with specialty green coolant, originally sourced from Mazda. All Edges built after a certain date now have specialty green as factory fill. I cut open some of the heater cores we had replaced and found the tubes on the hot side of the core blocked with silicates. I would suggest if the silicates in the Gold coolant are causing issues with heater cores, why not oil or egr coolers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbriggs Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I thought the edge heater cores were due to a reaction between the flux used during manufacturing and the coolant? (the fact that the flux never got properly flushed at manufacturing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbudge Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I am not sure if that is the case. The cores I cut open were blocked with silicates, similar to what you would find if your coolant strength is too high. If it was a manufacturing issue, why change the coolant type as part of the repair, and use the new coolant on all subsequent new vehicles. I think Ford likes to shift blame to supplier issues, therefore not opening the door to possibly having to replace coolant on all the early vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbriggs Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Quote: I think Ford likes to shift blame to supplier issues, Ford would never do that, would they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlchv70 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 The timing cover cavitation is a bit of a different situation than the cylinder liner cavitation. A 6.4l can move some seriously large amounts of water and if it is moving more air than water (due to a leaking radiator or whatnot) then it chews up the metal. It's more an issue of low coolant pressure than air. At lower coolant pressures, cavitation occurs earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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