Keith Browning Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 In a discussion at another venue related to fuel system damage caused by water I realized that the accepted approach to maintenance and fuel is incomplete. This may also include how the manufacturers are equipping their trucks to deal with water in fuel. I started doing some reading on this and discovered that ULSD fuel can potentially hold up to 25 times more suspended water than LSD. It stands to reason that some fuel will have higher water content. If water is truly suspended in the fuel it will be carried with the fuel and expose the entire system to it. The water separator systems the Ford trucks use fuel conditioning modules that depend on water naturally separating from the fuel and flowing to the lowest point in the system where it is trapped and can then be drained off. The filter elements have a water barrier on them to aid in the collection of that water but I would believe it is not in any way considered water FILTER. This is the reason "we" recommend avoiding any fuel additive that contains alcohol which will allow water to disperse into the fuel which counteracts the process of collecting and removing it. Bottom line is that perhaps we need to be considering how to deal with suspended water. This raises two questions pertaining to automotive use: [*]Is there an additive that will cause the suspended water to separate from fuel and allow it to be collected and removed? [*]Is filtration system that effectively removes water from diesel fuel that can be installed on these light duty trucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Not being a chemist (actually, not being much of anything other than an opinionated old fart), I think that there is quite a difference between "dispersed" and "emulsified". I've searched on the internet and I am more confused than ever... but that doesn't slow my opinion down. As far as I can see, if we add a dispersant to the fuel, this should allow the fuel to carry moisture out of the tank and deliver it to the water separator (Motorcraft fuel filters chat up their "Aquabloc" technology) where it can be removed - if not in its entirety, then at least the majority. This is the job of the membrane around the primary fuel filter (caution - opinion). If we add an emulsifier (like alcohol - I think there are going to be differences if we use methanol, ethanol or isopropyl - I do know that methanol is corrosive), I think we destroy the waters surface tension and this allows it to pass through the membrane and into the expensive bits of the fuel system. Sidebar.... your shop "should" have a "spill kit" or at least a bag of petroleum product absorbent pads. Take one of these pads and try and mop up water with it. If you are still concerned about efficiency (but I still feel that good quality fuel and proper filter maintenance should be all you need) you can investigate "coalescing fuel filters". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 Jim I am of the same opinion as you and agree with you on the maintenance. I guess I am questioning the efficiency of the Motorcraft fuel filter and whether it is actually sufficient in it's water separation and filtering capability. Just sayin... I have seen too many fuel injection failures where evidence of water was apparent. Most that I have come across are trucks owned by customers who DO maintain their trucks properly. I get a little annoyed when I read about techs getting a hard on when they see water contamination and a job turns into non-warranty. It is unfortunate. Mind you this is aside from the people who brew their own fuel. What's more, I am reading that bio-fuels also are capable of suspending higher amounts of water... and that B20 emblem on the doors of the Super Duty trucks? Ford says it's okay so is the filtration system up to the task? I think this a valid debate and Ford has made sure that we know how to look for such contamination and damage. You can find these downloads on the DTS Technical Resources page or FMCDealer.com. Since the 6.4L and 6.7L engines are extremely intolerant to contamination I think this is worth looking at. Consumers can't protect themselves from unknown fuel quality enough. For the record Jim, I too get confused when I start reading about this stuff. My eyes glaze over quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Motorcraft does claim that their diesel fuel filters remove 95% of the water...... but this is a tad subjective... If you have an acceptable amount of water in your fuel (read that as none), then 95% is a wonderful number. Here in the Republic of Alberta, where so many should know a lot better, fuel filter maintenance is deplorable. Fuel storage can be a joke. And water in fuel can be a fact of life. Even my son has a tidy tank in the back of his truck and I am always on his case about draining water separators regularly - and NOT waiting for the WIF light. The diesel owners supplement recommends draining the water separator once a month. What they have left out is that instead of letting this stuff piss onto the ground, the sample should be captured and scrutinized. If there is water present, then something should be done about it instead of relying on the water separator to do it for them. In retrospect, I'm not sure there is an affordable fuel drier available for the masses. Think of it this way. The engineers say "make sure the fuel is GOOD"... if the fuel has water in it, can we consider this as "good"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 After some thought... the water separator isn't there to "fix" a concern... it is there to tell us we have a concern to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 After I gave it some thought.....I thought I was hungry. I went and stuffed my face with all kinds of bad for me junk food. Watching Navy Seals training on Discovery and thinking how good I got it right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 Well that is the point of a water separator no? It is supposed to remove unwanted water AND inform us when we need to drain it. I do like your comment about draining the separator into a container for observation and that is something I like to do as this method will tell you how much water is there and alert you to other contaminants such as rust and if Ford's crappy metal fuel tanks have failed. Consider this: If we are supposedly removing 95% of the water then what about the remaining 5% of the water in the fuel? 5% of one ounce is a lot less than 5% of one gallon. When you don't know how much water you are dealing with 5% can mean a lot especially if it is reaching the fuel system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I seriously almost derailed this topic with my ramblings. To get back on track, I try to get customers on the drain there own separator program. When they buck the idea, I try to make them feel as bad as possible for being a neglectful owner. As far as the 2 questions raised (which I have asked myself in the past), my blood sugar level has dropped again and I just can't think straight at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I can see us coming to loggerheads over this... The key phrase/idea/concept is CLEAN FUEL. The water separator isn't there to separate water - it is there to tell us we have a problem with water. If I have water in my water separator then I must have water in my fuel tank. If I have water in my fuel tank then I must have a problem. This ain't rocket science . Ford has no control over the quality of fuel that an owner pumps into his tank. That fuel should contain no water... period. The water separator simply announces that the quality of your fuel is suspect. <SIGH>.... if your fuel contains water, it is contaminated and, therefore, isn't "good" fuel. Let's try a different wording.... the water separator isn't there to "fix" our fuel... it is there to tell us our fuel needs to be fixed. Ford has no control over the quality of anything we pump into our tanks. If it contains moisture then that is a concern for the producer, the carrier or the storage facility. Look at it this way... when you buy gas for your car, how much water should it have in it? How much do you feel is acceptable? (None would be a pretty good answer). I haven't used a gasline additive in my vehicles for over 12 years. Should I be using one and why should I be using it? As far as the water separator on a PSD is concerned. If we see indications of water, we can either fix the problem or we can ignore it. (If my truck has a flat tire, I can fix it or I can ignore it.... you can see where this is going). Fuel with water in it is contaminated fuel. deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 That reminds me..........I need to go drain my contaminated fuel seperator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 I can see us coming to loggerheads over this... I have a feeling we are already there. Originally Posted By: Jim Warman As far as the water separator on a PSD is concerned. If we see indications of water, we can either fix the problem or we can ignore it. (If my truck has a flat tire, I can fix it or I can ignore it.... you can see where this is going). Yes, this is headed to a dead end discussion. The premise here is that most if not ALL fuel has some degree of contamination in it regardless of what it is, be it water, dirt, chemicals, rust or fuel tank lamination. Originally Posted By: Jim Warman Fuel with water in it is contaminated fuel. deal with it.Well, since every truck owner doesn't own their own fuel refinery, distribution and storage operation that statement is pretty silly. This is where the water separation and filters come in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 That reminds me..........I need to go drain my contaminated fuel seperator ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 to clarify, I own a 6.0 The premise here is that most if not ALL fuel has some degree of contamination in it regardless of what it is, be it water, dirt, chemicals, rust or fuel tank lamination. I agree with this. No one gets perfectly clean water free fuel from anywhere, not to mention how can one even be sure you're buying clean fuel. There's no way to know at the pump Every time I pump fuel I wonder what's going in. I only use one station right now just because I've had good luck over the course of possibly 50 fill-ups now Call me crazy but I also smell the nozzle before I pump. You can't miss the presence of gasoline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: Jim Warman I can see us coming to loggerheads over this... I have a feeling we are already there. Originally Posted By: Jim Warman Fuel with water in it is contaminated fuel. deal with it. Well, since every truck owner doesn't own their own fuel refinery, distribution and storage operation that statement is pretty silly. This is where the water separation and filters come in. Silly? We trust our suppliers to deliver uncontaminated product. The water separator is there to help us IF water is present.. not because we are buying it along with our fuel. Let's say you open a bag of flour and find half a cockroach... mouse shit in your sugar... whatever... You gonna sift every powder in your kitchen to catch contaminants? You pull up to the pumps and say "I'll take the contaminated stuff if you give me a buck a gallon discount"? You make it sound like contaminated products are acceptable... I do not understand this manner of thinking. Imagine... flying to a remote vacation destination and finding out your airplane has water in it's fuel.... What constitutes "contaminated fuel"? Do you need to have a turd floating in it before we call it "bad"? We can have fuel.... or we can have fuel with contaminants in it. I hope your girlfriend is only a "little bit" pregnant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 What chaps my ass, and it happens alot around these parts, is when I tell the customer that there is way to much water/contaminants in their fuel and suggest they change where they fuel up, they look at me like I am a freaking loon. "All our trucks fill at the same place and mine is bad?", they say. "Well it came from somewhere.", I say. And I am the fool? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Dodson Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 At least on the 6.7 it looks like the water will actually be away from the flow of the fuel down at the bottom of the bowl with a vertical filter. the design on the 6.0 and 6.4 was garbage I'm not sure how they ever expected a horizontal filter to separate water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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