Performance Device Evidence

[Keith Browning]

You can site examples of failures and that is fine. I have replaced 15 or so FICM's and NONE were modded trucks. Sure, we can debate our theories, site our examples but you know what, neither you or I have any clue whether a tuner or any other device caused any of these failures. Not one shred of documentable proof because and we have no backing from Ford that is either definitive or consistent. Lets cross THAT hurtle first, shall we?

 

 

Quote:

I think the biggest issue is... Did the tuner cause the truck to fail faster and harder?

When Ford Motor Company can do more than publish a general warranty statement like the one I quoted above we will have a leg to stand on... and maybe a clue as to what affect these devices actually have on these engines and what specific damage they are KNOWN to cause. Armed with that information then and ONLY then can we make any kind of a legitimate call beyond obvious or physically relative damage.

 

Quote:

Remember...Don't shoot the messenger

Tony, I am not and I hope that you or anyone else don't think that I am. I respect you guys but I sometimes believe that we (techs in general) have this notion that we are smarter or more knowledgeable then the rest of the parties involved. To be honest I really want to know what research HAS been done to document aftermarket device related failures if any!

 

I guess what really frosts my ass is the smugness of certain owners and retailers that claim these products are perfectly safe and that they are using these vehicles within the limits of how they were designed, marketed and intended to be used. They assume absolutely NO responsibility or liability and project it onto Ford, dealerships and us, the technicians. So when I hear about or read that some of us act in similar fashion it somewhat blurs the line between "us" and "them".

 

Am I wrong? Am I just being an asshole about this? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif

[Tony302600]

Keith when i said dont shoot the messenger i meant it as in the workplace. LoL... not at you.. LoL. People dont understand we have Ford breathing down our thoats, managers, high warranty numbers and low labor times.

 

IT all comes down to this "WE'RE DAMNED IF WE DO....WE'RE DAMNED IF WE DON'T."

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

I think the key factor is. If our customers were upfront with us on the aftermarket add-ons we wouldn't have as many problems as the ones that try to hide the fact that they have it installed on their vehicles. At least we would know how to deal with the issues as they come to us, and not have to start from scratch with diag's. We all know the common problems with the6.9,7.3,6.0 and are learning the 6.4's. My boss just sold a Superchip to guy with a 08 6.4 today, my boss asked him to call him back and let him know how it went and see what improvements if any there are.

My boss has a Duramax and has the Intake system,Superchip and a exhaust on his truck, he has no improvement on mileage when he drives it, but when his wife does sees a 2-3 mpg increase....I think it may be who drives the truck and how it's driven we may want to look at....Let's face it, we all like to get up to speed as quick as we can but bitch when our mileage stays the same or goes down... The guy's/girls buying these trucks and installing the performance parts want more than Ford has to offer, Here's a thought..Why doesn't Ford or Nav. have a performance group the way the gassers do( SVT ) Don't forget the guy's with the high gears(4.77-5.10)in the rear that bitch the most about the mileage. It's a work truck deal with it.

 

I don't blame the A/M companies for the failures, but I do blame the end users because they don't fully understand what the performance parts will do to the longevity of the vehicle. They understand what the A/M companies tell them but drive it harder than before it was installed. If I bought a Lightning and drove the piss out of it and drag raced on the weekends, with the upgrades through SVT, do you think that you would cover something for WARRANTY if it was ABUSED I think that's what we are looking at right now.

 

JIM OR BRUCE OR KEITH ANY THOUGHTS???

 

 

PLEASE NO MORE PISSING MATCHES

 

We are here to help each other not a who's responsible like the public forums out there, If that's what you want to do...GO BACK THERE /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/fouet3.gif

[Keith Browning]

Keith when i said dont shoot the messenger i meant it as in the workplace. LoL... not at you.. LoL. People dont understand we have Ford breathing down our thoats, managers, high warranty numbers and low labor times.

 

IT all comes down to this "WE'RE DAMNED IF WE DO....WE'RE DAMNED IF WE DON'T."

 

Well, I suppose it wont change any time soon for sure. The best we can do is educate ourselves as best we can and make better diagnosis' and decisions.

[Guest]

the tuner really doesnt increase cylinder pressure they way you think. we are increasing volumetric efficiancy to increase combustion pressure which thus will give you more hp but your getting a complete burn in the combustion chamber.. with other tuners like edge or bullydog, when the tune and just increase fuel pressure and lengthen injections spray and you'll have unburned fuel in the chamber (black smoke) then ya that will increase cylinder pressure and create hydrolock, and also wash down the cylinder walls, and reducing the lubrication between the cylinder and the piston which will cause the piston to start wearing away and the cylinder.. they dont make an engine thats rated for 350hp and put a crank and rods in it that can only handle 350hp and tune the engine at 345hp,, they would be eating it.. .

 

banks is very good about standing behind the product.. we can test a tuner to say that it is defective or if its working properly,, the ford dealers around here will send the tuner to us to have it test and to see if its working properly.

[Aaron]

banks is very good about standing behind the product.. we can test a tuner to say that it is defective or if its working properly,, the ford dealers around here will send the tuner to us to have it test and to see if its working properly.

Does banks pony up if it is shown their product caused the failure?

[Jim Warman]

Does banks pony up if it is shown their product caused the failure?

I'm still trying to figure the difference between "combustion pressure" and "cylinder pressure".

 

I'm having a real problem.... Someone seems to think this is a good place to advertise aftermarket products rather than share knowledge and ideas....

[Tony302600]

Im not here to bash anyone...but he's not thinking before he types.... I think he's trying to brainwash us. I agree with you Jim

[Shlep]

I agree that some performance "Tuners" do cause more damage then the end user is aware of, and yes we're stuck in the rock and the hard place dilema but not all add ons are bad for the life of the engine. For example if you take the factory exhaust off and hang on a free flowing unit, you will lower the egt's and more then likely your turbo will last longer because of the lower heat it has to endure. Now throw a tuner into the mix and now you've created a whole new can of worms, so much for the lower egts because the tuner will add more fuel and boost and stress the entire engine beyond it's limitations. Now I'll be up front here and say I haven't seen Banks 6 Gun cause many problems but other programmers have done considerable damage, problem being the guys that do the most damage are the guys who haul the huge ass 5th wheels at 80mph @ 100F down the highway and wonder why the damn thing goes into meltdown.

 

Like most of us here I just repair the things the best we can as long as the customer is up front with any add on devices he has/had on the truck and we'll go from there as to see if it was the root cause of the problem.

[Jim Warman]

"Free flowing exhaust".... as in no cat? In the end, it isn't about what is best for the truck.... to some extent, it has nothing to do with the owners desires nor his wallet. It has everything to do with what is legal and what our grand children would have us do....

 

Am emissions control is an emissions control... I'm not such a curmudgeon that I deny the existance of these things or modifications.... But they have no place on a daily driver.

 

If some guy walked past your house on a daily basis and took a dump on your lawn, you'd have him arrested.... If some guy drives his truck past your house on a daily basis and takes a dump in the air you breathe, you should feel the same.

 

Cleaning up vehicle emissions isn't some folly or a plot by the "cabal"... It is both a necessity and a requirement... if we are to be regarded as professionals, we must act as professionals. One of the driving factors to my success came when I finally stopped saying "yeah, we can do that" and started saying "no, I wont do that".

 

If we thumb our noses at the law, we will be considered as gypsys, charlatans and thieves....

[Tony302600]

Lets not get off topic..... Or is it too late to make another thread up. I wonder if "banks" has all its guys huddled around this site while he debates what to "post" next about his banks propoganda. ( im not throwing shots just saying )

[ktmlew]

For Mr Banks...

 

Quote:

the tuner really doesnt increase cylinder pressure they way you think. we are increasing volumetric efficiancy to increase combustion pressure which thus will give you more hp but your getting a complete burn in the combustion chamber

You DO agree the head bolts are the weak point on the 6.0L as for amount of cyl pressure it can hold? You mentioned these engines "committing suicide" by having the turbos stick...seems like making more cyl pressure, in any way, would be shortening the "fuse"?

 

Quote:

banks is very good about standing behind the product.. we can test a tuner to say that it is defective or if its working properly,, the ford dealers around here will send the tuner to us to have it test and to see if its working properly.

 

So IF and engine comes in with blown head gaskets, you would test the tuner and say "not our fault, it's working as designed...Must have been the turbo sticking"???

 

What would be "proof" for you that the tuner caused the "damage"?

 

I'm guessing nothing could persuade you your tuner caused the problem...the motor is already at maximum state of tune as delivered from factory and you know that...but dat won't pay your bills will it?

[Shlep]

Sorry Jim, I shoulda been a little more clear on what I meant by free flowing exhaust, I, by no means condone removal of emission control devices, I do have the cat on my diesel and when I do replace the exhaust it WILL have the cat back in place.

[Tony302600]

This is a touchy subject.... I hope Keith doesnt think we are bashing here. I am using this to see what the tuners take on all this is. If anything this is very imformative IMHO.

[Brad Clayton]

DITTO

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Okay guy's I have found all of the warranty disclaimers that Superchips has, will post it tomorrow, forgot to bring it home with me today. Just wait till you see this...

Let's get this straight. I don't think that anyone of us here has done something to a car or truck that is not factory stock. But I think that the end-users need to be aware of the fact that customizing or changing the vehicle will alter it and in some(not all)cases void the warranty. Of which I will post the facts tomorrow on this subject. In essence there is a law that states that is illegal for a dealer or manufacturer to void a warranty for the installation of a a/m part, whether it be a fender,head light or tuner, the description is actually vague but protects the customer and the a/m suppliers. But does state that if abused will void warranty. Do you guy's see what I am saying?

[Jim Warman]

Larry... I hope we're not talking Moss-Magnusson.... This stuff is in an area that is so grey that I don't ever see anything logical coming from it....

 

What get's lost in the translation is that this act has nothing to do with us serious drinkers.... Moss-Magnusson has no effect on Canada... It's a US only thing.... a Liberal plot to make life harder... It's a politically correct way of saying "we like stupid people". It rates right up there with people that don't expect a cup of coffee to be hot.... people that have to touch the paint right beside the sign that says "wet paint".... (some of these folks are disappointed when they find out that the sign has been there long enough for the wet paint to become paint that "used" to be wet....

 

If I'm on the wrong track, feel free to call me every name in the book...

 

Disclaimer... I am just fed up with those that cannot think their way through minor problems and my lack of humour is something I apologize profusely for....

[Aaron]

If some guy walked past your house on a daily basis and took a dump on your lawn, you'd have him arrested....

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

[Alex Bruene]

Jim, you forgot to mention the guy that eats 10 Big-Macs a day and wonders why he weighs 600lbs.