Performance Device Evidence

[Jim Warman]

If I saw a P1000, I might look at the CLR_DIST PID. P1000 is simply an informational code that tells us that not all the "monitors" are completed... If that P1000 is present and the CLR_DIST shows a lot of driving, we can assume that <something> is keeping one or more monitors from completing... and this could be the sign of a problem.

 

The 6.0 PSD is pretty high strung from the git-go.... Navistar offers this motor with 230HP as the highest power setting... Ford has already upped the ante with nearly 100 more HP.... All the same, all I ask is that my customer be up front.... Disconnect the tuner b ut allow me to know it was there. Drive the truck enough in stock trim to be sure that the concern is with the truck and not with the add-ons.

 

Once we know what has failed and why it has failed, we can make suggestions as to whether we feel the aftermarket device(s) played a role in it or not... The idea is to be fair about it...

[Keith Browning]

Alex, I have a few customers that play this game. Seeing clear distances of 2.4 miles, 15 miles and 0 warm ups tells me we may have pulled more than codes on the ride in to the dealer. the really unfortunate part is that it also comes with freeze frame data and powertrain information that has also been cleared that might have assisted in diagnosing any driveability concerns.   I play fair as Jim put it so it really pisses me off when my customers don't. I do not feel that is a good enough reason to just blow the customer out the door however. I have never gone looking for a reason to void a customers warranty because that is not the right thing to do. My job is to diagnose the vehicle and make an effective repair. If, and only if I determine an aftermarket device has caused the problem then it becomes the customers responsibility. I can count the number of these instances in 20 years on one hand.

[Alex Bruene]

I suppose I should clarify... I'd rather see the truck come into my shop in the state that it is used day in and day out. I am also not in it to burn somebody's warranty, but I hate it when somebody is wasting my time by clearing any information that may have been present, or by bringing me a vehicle than may not act-up in stock settings so I can't verify... again wasting my time all in an effort to essentially lie to me.

[Keith Browning]

Ahh, but Alex, don't you see? We are a bunch of incompetent liars and hacks here at the dealer... stealerships.

[Alex Bruene]

 

 

stealerships.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Rule #1 refer to the dealer with a problem

 

Rule #2 refer to rule #1

[Jeff_]

Well Fellas, Sheriff Jeff struck again and burned another warranty  It was the typical story... A cold Minnesota winter day, the sounds of engines and air tools fill the shop with that old familiar noise. A busy service drive, and a customer with coolant blowing out of his degas bottle on his Excursion with only 30k miles. I'm assigned the ticket, and soon realize what I really have before me...an idiot. Unfortunately for him, he didn't remove all of the evidence before bringing it in. I figured I'd at least give him a chance to come clean, but he lied...and I instinctively threw him under the bus for it.As he waited so innocently in the customer lounge for me to diagnose what he already knew was wrong, I couldn't help but notice there was a pyrometer in the down pipe that was not hooked up to anything, the wires were coiled up and tucked into a corner. By the way, the wires were not long enough to go through the dash for an egt gauge, so I assumed that they had another purpose at one point in time. Also the left battery cables were loose, and upon removing the battery cover, it was obvious the center pcm connector had been tampered with by an amateur. Wouldn't you know, the pyrometer wires just so happen to reach into that area too. Also the typical IDS telltale signs (which shall remain nameless due to a certain conflict of interest among us), were also quite suspicious, and showed that something had cleared some data very recently - yet OASIS showed no warranty repairs since 2006 "sigh."I calmly proceeded to the customer lounge to have a chat with the customer. Seeking all of the information is an important step in the SSCC diagnostic process as we all know. I mentioned the pyrometer, and he exhibited the deer in the headlights look. After a long delay - enough time for him to think of a logical explanation, he said it was for an aftermarket EGT gauge he used to have. I mentioned that I didn't notice any screw holes in the dash from where it would have been mounted, and his response was that it was a "stick on" model.Well, the bullshit was getting a little to deep for the boots I was wearing, so I told him that the diagnosis shouldn't take too much longer. At this point, I explained the situation to my SM, and was told to handle this however I wish  I decided that perhaps I'm not qualified to make any such decisions...So I gave my field service engineer a phone call. My FSE seemed VERY INTERESTED in the situation, and instructed me to fill out the online warranty cancellation request form, and to also email him a copy, so that the warranty would be personally voided by my FSE before this guy even left our dealership.Well, that answered that...right from a FoMoCo corporate employee. I'm obligated to comply with my FSE's instructions, and so I did. My writer told the customer that Ford engineering is involved in the diagnosis of his vehicle, and they told us that for some reason our dealership can't perform any warranty repairs on it. We gave him a CP estimate which he declined, and went on his merry way.What is even more interesting, is that one of our other local dealers gave my SM a phone call a couple days later asking if we knew anything about this vehicle, and why there is a message on OASIS stating that Digital Imaging had declined a warranty repair see CUDL for details... I guess shopping around for other dealers to perform this repair under warranty isn't going to work out very well  To purchase this episode, or for more information on where to find the online warranty cancellation request form, go to fmcdealer - Parts & Service tab - warranty administration and parts return (bottom of left column) - Warranty cancellation request form.

[jaysonfordtech]

     Just warms my heart, lol.

[Tony302600]

I had a warranty engine light on a 06 6.0L...Guy has been in here before, truck is a jacked up dually, 8 inch stacks coming out of the center of the bed ( very proffesional job ). He buys maintainence, etc etc.Pulled codes, he has every single injector low ckt code in the book. Truck runs awesome, but throws the engine light on. Noticed a P1000, and the 2 pids that tell us that "someone did something to hide it." Told the service writer to ask the owner if he uses a programmer, he said...i know im not supposed to but yes i do. I gladly fixed the truck under warranty.Sceonario 2. Truck gets towed in from another dealer. I hear the owner screaming up front. He says "the other Mother f-in dealer said that this repair is not under warranty on this 30K 06 F-350, thats bullshit, i want it covered under warranty." I get the ticket   Pop the hood.... Banks six-gun is staring me in the eye, level knob on the dash is still at #6.Pulled codes did diag, called the other dealer they said "he got cops involved saying he wants his truck back but doesnt wanna pay for diag complete asshole. " walked up there with an CP estimate on a FICM, replacement, diag, programming. He had to buy it.Nice guy 1....gets it fixedAsshole 2 sorry....     . 

[Jeff_]

Well done

[Rickster42]

Got one in the drivethru right now... 06 F350 massive tires/dual exhaust/intake/the works. No heat at idle...hehe. NO SIR I DON`T HAVE A CHIP/PROGRAMMER!

Ok - why where the codes cleared 14.99km ago?

UH..UH.. oh yea, I had a program for better fuel mileage....

No sir the factory program is the economy program...hehe

Better yet he bought the truck in the USA to save a few bux..

Truck is still in the drivethru and I plan to have way more fun with this after lunch...

[Jeff_]

[Guest]

ok this is the type of stuff i really think should be voided on warrenties.. like i said i hate programmers.. i really dont think anyone is gunna put a programmer on there truck JUST for fuel economy.. you want better fuel mileage add air.. not fuel, air is FREE.. as far as a sixgun tuner, alot of dealers are voiding this just because they say it is an aftermarket performance item. but now that tuner has alot of safety features in it to (safeguard) the engine. if they had a tuner on the truck and it was hooked up properly (w/thermalcoupler) then i would ask what the tuner did to cause the failure.. alot of guys dont know exactly what the tuner is doing so they just assume that it caused it.. thats another thing that grinds my gears.. i recently just won a case with a ford dealer locally they tried to void a warranty on a 03 6.0.. the guy had the dealer replace his turbo when the truck was stock with a (remanufactured one) then a month later i put a hole bundle on his truck,, intercoolers and all.. his turbo went out again on the freeway he lost all boost.. took it back to the dealer and the ball bearings went out on it.. they tried blaming banks for a faulty turbo they had just put on.. i told them to try again.. truck is still under warranty..

[Jeff_]

Quote:

alot of guys dont know exactly what the tuner is doing so they just assume that it caused it.. thats another thing that grinds my gears.. i recently just won a case with a ford dealer locally they tried to void a warranty on a 03 6.0

Yup, that is exactly why I let my field service engineer make the decision. That way my dealership is insulated from any legal issues, and Ford Motor Company's legal team can deal with any issues that may arrise from their decision. Maybe they can send 100 lawyers at a time like they did during the Firestone Fiasco. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer2.gif

[Tony302600]

J....im sorry but anything that makes the 6.0L fly like the 6gun does is not covered under warranty. level 6 is disgusting fast with the intercooler, piping, etc etc. Now...the 6.0L is at 125% of capabilities...and ure gonna throw 150HP more at it...c'mon man... dont give me that horse junkie. Banks is just as fault as any other tuning company. the 6.0 makes 28psi boost.....the 6gun had my buddies up to 32psi + is that its designed limits? ... no... BTW he knows that he has no warranty through me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

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[Jim Warman]

Now, I might be just a iggurrant old guy... but somebody is going to have to explain the difference between a "tuner" and a "programmer"....

 

As far as adding air.... with no other changes..... not to the fuel curve or it's timing.... hmmmmm...

 

Some of the things I use to determine warranty elligibilty... the back tires are at 3/32 and the fronts are at 12/32 (and the truck has only 30,000 Kms on it).... if there is a code left in the PCM, it might be a P0297.... line 3 on the RO is "wind noise at 140 Km/H"... there's more... but these should do for now.

 

If the "ball bearings" in the turbo went out... little wonder that Ford wouldn't want to honour any warranty....

 

Something that "grinds my gears".... I'm doing everything I can with my daily (and some of my "not so daily" drivers) to minimize the footprint I leave behind me on our environment... and then some poohawk comes along and tries to undo all the good I'm doing....

[Guest]

a tuner plugs in after the pcm inline with the ficm and basically intercepts the signals and changes it to a different input signal to the ficm.. im pretty sure even with the 6gun on the truck no computer can even see its there.. a programmer programs the pcm to a hole different calibration. this is the most dangerous because when your driving the truck there is nothing that can make the truck go back to stock calibration in a split second if egt's, boost, et,ot,tran temp, tcc slip. and alot of these programmers reprogram the transmission were the sixgun doesnt but is constantly recieving data. for instance when the trans shifts the tuner automatically defuels 50% to keep it easy on the tranny.. theres no sensor on a stock 6.0 that is seeing egt's so basically the banks tuner has more safety features then the stock pcm.. the tuner doesnt raise boost psi either.. we do nothing to adjust the vgt, only the fuel pulse width,timing, fuelpressure.. i can get 33psi out of my turbo stock with 16,000 pounds on my ass max.. level 6 of the tuner if they have the switch and speedloader installed will give them about 140hp and 231lbtq.. the only problem is this is for racing and the egt limiting is 1500 degrees. 1 stock,2-5 egt limiting 1350...

[Jeff_]

Quote:

the tuner doesnt raise boost psi either.. we do nothing to adjust the vgt, only the fuel pulse width,timing, fuelpressure.. i can get 33psi out of my turbo

The max boost on a stock truck is 26 psi. Even though you say your tuner doesn't specifically change vgt, it does increase boost nonetheless by increasing the fuel volume. Since turbo's operate from the heat of expanding gasses, more fuel = MORE BOOST. More boost = more head gasket failures...and Ford should pay for this why?

[Guest]

that may be somewhat true,, but it has been well documented that on stock 6.0's they were blowing head gaskets, and the turbos were sticking at the max boost pressures (stock).. the reason it gets to 33 is because theres a certain lag in the computer part.. with the tuner on the truck it will get to the high boost conditions faster, but the by the time the mas sees it and tells it tells the turbo what to do, boost hits 30-33 max.. if it was a wastegated turbo it would probably be a little different and work a little faster.. but you would have blow off

 

but here's another thing i could add,, and that would be to prove that the tuner did make the boost get too high and cause weak headbolts to stretch and the head gaskets to fail.. sounds to me like a week headbolt design from international..

[Jeff_]

But realize, the only reason Ford is having these problems on some stock vehicles, is because they took a VT365 and added over 100 hp already for the Super Duty trucks. Ford is already pushing the envelope and running the 6.0 at the ragged edge of what the bean counters can justify paying for in their horsepower war with Chevy and Dodge. Now you want to take the Ford 6.0 and run it at 126.9 percent, and expect to blame Ford when it doesn't work too well. I've got to tell you, I'm not quite following your logic or justification, but I do thank your industry for all the customer pay diesel work you provide. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

On the Nav. side they aren't having nearly the problems that Ford has to start with this engine. Simply put Ford over-speced the engine and did nothing to compensate for the increased HP/Torque that it's putting out. Hp/Torque wars between the big three is the blame here, instead of building a good quality long lasting work horse. They all are in hurry to market and the big losers in the end are not only the customers, the bigger loser here are all of us. We are the ones stuck between the Manufacturers and the customers and getting beat on continiously JUST FOR DOING OUR JOBS.

[Guest]

its a visious circle... but i do recall banks being the first to turbocharge a diesel on the old 6.9/7.3's and they are still running today.. and if you want a bullet proof workhorse that ship has sailed.. late 7.3's.. and now international just screwed ford with the 6.0 and now the 6.4.. and everybody is complaining and calling us because we are the originals and wants us to make these engines right.. the one thing i do know about ford is that they dont do really a hole lot of testing on the new trucks.. they make them and then release them without putting thousands of miles on these trucks. they let the public be the dummies..

[Cetane]

the one thing i do know about ford is that they dont do really a hole lot of testing on the new trucks.. they make them and then release them without putting thousands of miles on these trucks. they let the public be the dummies..

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Look, I am not on here to make any enemies but WTF! How is it that you "know" that? Maybe in Azuza, CA ,the world capital of vehicle testing, the vehicles didnt make an appearance but I know a hell of a lot more than you do about the development of these trucks. I have been personally involved with this program for more than 5 years and I am sure that I have more test time under my belt than you do. Now, does anyone really think if Ford knew there were problems we would have released the truck? Things happen between time the truck was finalized and production. I am not posting this to say they dont have flaws, they do, but they were created long after the durability was done. I could care less if you say the truck is junk but dont attack the process, you obviously have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

[Keith Browning]

they make them and then release them without putting thousands of miles on these trucks. they let the public be the dummies..

I think a blanket statement like that should have been considered before making it. Did you know that Ford Motor Company tested over 600 6.4L Power Strokes for over 10 million total miles? I don't think they were out joy riding.

 

 

This topic has turned into a pissing contest. I for one am not intereste in who has the longer cock here.

 

 

I also want to share my opinion on voiding warranties. I do think we should avoid coming off as sounding cavalier about this practice. Even when a customer lies to us and makes diagnosis difficult at times, we really need to be able to determine what the root cause of a failure actually is. Assuming that any failure on an engine is related to an aftermarket part is not only not professional, it could have legal repercussions.

 

 

 

The warning that Ford prints in the owners manual, the under hood sticker and the warranty policy and procedure manual specifically states:

Quote:

If the installation/use of a non-Ford Motor Company product fails or causes a Ford part to fail, the cost of the repair and any related damage will not be covered by the Ford new vehicle Limited warranty unless the part is an EPA certified emissions product under the clean air act, section 207 and CFR 85.2112 and 85.2122.

Why did I type that legal drivel? Well, it tells us as techs, we need to be sure that the aftermarket part actually caused the failure. Prove the head gasket would not have failed without the programmer like thousands have. How did the tuner cause a FICM to go bad? Were the PCM terminals bent or melted?. Did a non-Ford calibration cause the VGT to rust and stick causing an over boost condition that blew head gaskets or melted piston #3? I know I can't make that determination.

 

Jake? can you tell me how many Banks products for Ford diesel engines are "EPA Certified?" If a Banks 6-gun tuner is not then is has no business being on the truck. Does it? I for one am getting a little tired of people playing the blame game and pointing the finger at everyone else. This is not a banks commercial. This is not a warranty voiding contest. I was, and still am, hoping for this topic to be informative and useful. Here, we need not be overly concerned with who's fault it is or who is paying... our jobs are to identify the root cause of the failure and perform an effective repair. Let everyone else worry about who has the the crappier product or who is paying the bill. That is what all of the other diesel web forums are for.

 

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[Tony302600]

Keith, i am all about not voiding warranties...but lets look at it this way..... The adding timing curves that these tuners do add (100HP to the engine), increasing cylinder pressure above designed limits.... That did help the poorly engineer headbolts stretch faster, and then warp the heads. Now could that tuner have helped the FICM fail causing ALL low inj ckt codes and a no-start...maybe.. I will say that 90% of FICM failures i've seen were on trucks with a tuner on them. Did i void the warranty...no...Did my SM make the customer pay...only the asshole.

 

if we voided everyone's warranty then we would HAVE to void the warranty of people putting in gasoline instead of diesel fuel. They pay the bill for the mistake, and on ure way.

 

I do have the right to sternly rec. an asshole customer....(Mother f-in Ford, the company, his truck, possibly me,) pay the bill because of his tuner set at level 6 causing his truck to fail faster.

 

I think the biggest issue is... Did the tuner cause the truck to fail faster and harder? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

 

Warranties should be voided by the rec. of the FSE and SM IMHO. Then it's not on ure shoulders..... Remember...Don't shoot the messenger...i'm here to tell you what I found and her is my recomendation. In the end we will get /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif one way or the other. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

 

On Edit : like ive said before my cousin is a Ford engineer and his wife also so i've seen and been told the rigors and standards of Ford Develoment/Testing standards.