Oh The Legality!

[Keith Browning]

We are all aware of certain modifications that truck owners do to their trucks. We are aware that most of these modifications are not emissions law compliant and are intended for "off road use only."

 

So let's say a truck owner trades in his 2007 F550 that has an EGR delete on his 6.0L diesel engine at the dealership.

 

What are the possible liabilities the dealership would face if they were to sell such a vehicle?

 

I wonder if there are any actions a dealer could take, or claim against the person who traded the truck in and did not disclose the modification.

 

Anyone ever see this happen?

[lmorris]

Here in Alberta, it has most likely happened quite a few times. Emissions enforcement does not happen here. My guess is that a new truck can not be sold with emission modified, but after that they are free game. I have seen a few go through our dealership with EGR deletes, DPF deletes. We will however offer to revert them back to stock if the customer wishes. That has only happened once though with a DPF deleted truck.

[Matt Saunoras]

I'll pick them out on a used car check just for the work. Techincally it fails visual part of PA state inspection but 90% of guys inspecting trucks wouldn't know a cooler delete if they saw one. So many go unnoticed.

 

I just worked on a truck the other day our upholstry guy just bought. He was happy to find out the cooler was already gone.

 

I'll be honest Keith I have no idea what the consequence would be for a dealer who sold one or the customer who traded it in. I purposely didn't trade my car in for this very reason.

[Jim Warman]

Ahh, where to start.... (what, you had to come up with something to get me posting more? )

 

Let's begin with us and our professional appearance... or lack of it. Let me start with a recent event... a commercial vehicle inspection (what we call a CVIP here in Gods country). A F450 with aftermarket HIDs - clearly a violation of oh so many regs.... I flunked it. The customer took it to another shop that has the authority to perform CVIP inspections and it was summarily passed.

 

So, the guy that will "do anything for a buck" ("hey sailor, wanna get lucky?" seems to be a mantra for some "techs") is the "good guy", I'm the bad guy and someone has just made a mockery of a tax funded (that reads as your and my hard earned dollars, Leon) program. Is the tech that passed headlights that are in contravention of regs acting professionally?

 

Alberta is yet to have any sort of anti-tampering laws in regards to emissions compliance. An out of province inspection asks if there any DTCs that might affect the SAFE operation of the vehicle. We start with an open ended query and then we castrate it.... yayy. It also asks if the CEL works "as intended"... Well.... yeah... as intended by the programmer...

 

Some Alberta Ford dealers include all manner of "accessories" in the sale of a vehicle. Our dealership found that selling trucks AND chips at the same time, wasn't helping warranty numbers and (thankfully) said "thanks but no thanks" - sadly, it appears that this is limited to chips and only to installs where warranty is a consideration.

 

While legality is a major consideration, we cannot overlook impropriety. The thought that we can do something as long as we don't get caught.... A sports hero is found doing drugs and/or steroids... caught with his pants down with an unwilling partner.... a participant in the fine art of dog fighting.... Our sports hero is "sorry he did it"... bollocks... he's sorry he got caught.

 

I can't speak for "green" states and what is and isn't "legal".... but I think I do speak for what is "right". News reports from the 50s, 60s amd early 70s were full of smog warnings. People in the Los Angeles basin were warned not to venture outside. It has been proven that emissions controls work....

 

Sidebar.... often, you will hear even trained techs ask "how can increased fuel consumption give lower emissions?". To these people, I can only suggest that they stop thinking that this is a trade of parts changers and start appreciating the myriad of events that occur in the infernal (sic) combustion device.

 

I've said it before and it seems I have to say it again... the public has entrusted US with ensuring that vehicles perform as intended at the time they were built....

 

And we are fucking that up horribly.

[Keith Browning]

what, you had to come up with something to get me posting more?

Think of it as being similar to placing a mirror under one's nose to see if they are sleeping or dead.

 

 

This conundrum highlights several problems.

 

1 - Is the modification breaking laws - who is liable and when? Is the vehicle owner who installed the emissions defeating device liable when he installed it on a vehicle that is registered and driven every day on the highways and roads we all use? Obviously this is not off road use only! Is that owner liable when he sells the vehicle privately or trades it in at a dealership and fails to disclose the presence of the device?

 

2 - Is a dealer or other sales entity liable when they accept the vehicle with the device installed or when they re-sell it whether they are aware of it's presence or not?

 

3 - We can all agree that many of the emissions devices on our cars and trucks today have drawbacks and undesirable side affects but they are there for a reason, a good reason. Clean air! I like what you reminded us of Jim, "News reports from the 50s, 60s and early 70s were full of smog warnings. People in the Los Angeles basin were warned not to venture outside. It has been proven that emissions controls work."

 

4 - The impropriety issue is an interesting one and as far as I am concerned EVERYONE is failing on this. Not just the technicians and mechanics that inspect, or fail to inspect vehicles or choose to look the other way, but the laws that regulate emissions seem to lack enforcement with any integrity. Despite the presence of warning labels on vehicles and disclaimers in the packaging and documentation of products that defeat emissions devices and other non-certified emissions compliant products it is just too easy for us all to look the other way and unfortunately most of us do. Cough!

[DwayneGorniak]

I've said it before and it seems I have to say it again... the public has entrusted US with ensuring that vehicles perform as intended at the time they were built....

 

And we are fucking that up horribly.

Define We! You yourself are also a lucky sailor. You will do what ever your boss wants you to do to earn your paycheck and be lucky enough to pay your bills. I'm not saying you like doing it. I'm not saying you do it either. But we know darned well that it happens in "ALL" Dealerships or at least most. But you do what you have to do to pay the bills. Which is what I find "most" (not all) tech's do. The number of modified vehicles on display on the lots and in the show rooms glistening from being all shined up as per Managements request is staggering all over North America, especially here in Alberta.

 

The changes have to be made at the top of the food chain in this industry. And until they are, you will do what you need to do to earn a paycheck just like other techs will out there in the industry.

 

I see Chad bought a new 2013 Mustang. Any mods, being done to that yet? And if not, when?

[Jim Warman]

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

I've said it before and it seems I have to say it again... the public has entrusted US with ensuring that vehicles perform as intended at the time they were built....

 

And we are fucking that up horribly.

Define We! You yourself are also a lucky sailor. You will do what ever your boss wants you to do to earn your paycheck and be lucky enough to pay your bills. I'm not saying you like doing it. I'm not saying you do it either. But we know darned well that it happens in "ALL" Dealerships or at least most. But you do what you have to do to pay the bills. Which is what I find "most" (not all) tech's do. The number of modified vehicles on display on the lots and in the show rooms glistening from being all shined up as per Managements request is staggering all over North America, especially here in Alberta.

 

The changes have to be made at the top of the food chain in this industry. And until they are, you will do what you need to do to earn a paycheck just like other techs will out there in the industry.

 

I see Chad bought a new 2013 Mustang. Any mods, being done to that yet? And if not, when?

You aren't quite totally right, Dwayne... there are things that they will not give to me as far as jobs are concerned and there are things that they do not ask me to do. You are confusing my willingness to lay in a snowbank at -30 chasing a temperature sensitive concern with a willingness to do anything for a buck.

 

Do I modify play toys? You bet your fucking boots I do... PLAY TOYS, not daily drivers. Do they get driven on the streets? You bet. Last year, the '69 Charger went 0 miles.... the '67 Coronet went 0 miles... the '66 Chevelle was driven for something less than 4 hours total.

 

Do I work on vehicles previously modified? Yes. Does that matter since it wasn't my choice to modify it to begin with?

 

I have a pet 550 with a DPF delete. Chasing a running concern, I reflashed the PCM back to stock. Later, much to my distaste, I returned the Edge programming - I did not say I was about to have my career commit suicide - and noticed that three times.... THREE TIMES... the programmer issued three warnings (that's nine warnings in total - even in metric). FWIW, my decision to reinstall the programming as a convenience to the customer (who owns MANY F550s) still plays on my mind from time to time.

 

Look at it this way... if we want to eliminate prostitution, do we get rid of the prostitutes? Or do we cut off everybodies pecker? You and I both know that Alberta has to come up with some anti-tampering legislation and the penalties need to extend to DIYers. There isn't a politician out there willing to commit political suicide (not even my old buddy Pearl who got back in not because she is good but because the wildrose party is a bunch of radicals with dangerous thoughts). Here-in, we need the public to take a stand on emissions compliance and to show our politicians that they stand a beter chance of being elected if they support the idea.

 

So.... Chad bought a 2013 Mustang - what the fuck does that have to do with me? A friend of mine has a Shelby GT350 on order.... number 137, IIRC. Not to be outdone, one of his relatives has ordered a SuperSnake.

 

You must have missed all those times they call me to the front counter to answer queries about mods.... I can list downsides to everything you want to think of and I never fail to mention the legacy of my grandson.

 

We do not own theis planet - we are borrowing it.... from our grandchildren.

 

Before I forget, my sons 08 still has the Donaldson air filter AND the DPF intact and working.

[Jim Warman]

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

what, you had to come up with something to get me posting more?

Think of it as being similar to placing a mirror under one's nose to see if they are sleeping or dead.

 

 

This conundrum highlights several problems.

 

1 - Is the modification breaking laws - who is liable and when? Is the vehicle owner who installed the emissions defeating device liable when he installed it on a vehicle that is registered and driven every day on the highways and roads we all use? Obviously this is not off road use only! Is that owner liable when he sells the vehicle privately or trades it in at a dealership and fails to disclose the presence of the device?

I think that we need to tread a little carefully now that we are tossing the words "modification" and "laws" around. If we are dealing with mods that affect vehicle emissions (and there, we even have sub-sets dealing with tailpipe emissions, evaporative emissions and (I suppose) slobbering/drooling fluids emissions. While a software modification will be, presumably, in the realm of the EPA and, to an extent, CARB (neither one has anything to do with Canada, BTW), when we get into any mechanical mods we now have to consider FMVSS - Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (in Canada we have the CMVSS which is very nearly, with some exceptions, a copy of the FMVSS.

 

In your example, it would be nice to see some sort of mechanism in place that would take the CAVEAT EMPTOR out of a trade in transaction - sadly, it would be impossible to police. This "not me" guy is everywhere and I do not have enough faith in the general public to expect a George Washington kinda "yessir, I did that" answer.

 

It remains the duty of the tech performing the used vehicle inspection to alert the powers that be to any safety defects or modifications on the vehicle at hand. Unfortunately, there are times that our humanity gets in the way and stuff can slip by, we endeavour to be vigilant.

 

 

Quote:

2 - Is a dealer or other sales entity liable when they accept the vehicle with the device installed or when they re-sell it whether they are aware of it's presence or not?

Yes, I think the dealership or responsible parties should be culpable. Every used vehicle brought onto the lot should undergo a comprehensive inspection - for both safety issues as well as compliance with existing regulations. Consumers are looking to us to supply them with a safe vehicle - we hold the public trust in this regard (just as we expect bus drivers and train engineers to not be text messaging when they are working, that we expect someone hauling dangerous goods to have a notion of what to do or who to call when something goes wrong, that we expect airline flight crews to be high in only one respect at a time). It is what we say we do - and I think that this is why we should do it.

 

Quote:

3 - We can all agree that many of the emissions devices on our cars and trucks today have drawbacks and undesirable side affects but they are there for a reason, a good reason. Clean air! I like what you reminded us of Jim, "News reports from the 50s, 60s and early 70s were full of smog warnings. People in the Los Angeles basin were warned not to venture outside. It has been proven that emissions controls work."

 

4 - The impropriety issue is an interesting one and as far as I am concerned EVERYONE is failing on this. Not just the technicians and mechanics that inspect, or fail to inspect vehicles or choose to look the other way, but the laws that regulate emissions seem to lack enforcement with any integrity. Despite the presence of warning labels on vehicles and disclaimers in the packaging and documentation of products that defeat emissions devices and other non-certified emissions compliant products it is just too easy for us all to look the other way and unfortunately most of us do. Cough!

 

Recently, I performed a CVIP (commercial vehicle inspection) on a near new F450. The truck was in pretty good shape, all things being equal, but I failed it for non-compliant headlights. The truck was fitted with HID conversions. These are a 'no' in Alberta for sure and in Canada (I am lead to believe) as a whole. I have to point out that the CVIP program is funded by tax dollars. The owner of the truck took the truck to another facility and the truck was summarily paased and a certificate issued.

 

Report the offending station? Right..... "Oh no, sir. It had stock bulbs when I checked it". The odd time that this truck passes over the weigh scales, the scale masters pay little attention to the trucks headlights because the inspection program is supposed to catch those (which, I suppose, is a lot like Catch 22). But we can see that the program isn't going to work unless we all participate. This isn't a failure of the program... it is a lack of honesty and integrity on the part of individuals.

 

Sidebar, one place that our system does fall down as far as I am concerned - TPMS systems are mandatory on certain vehicles in the US - this is one of those areas where CMVSS and FMVSS disagree (DRL headlights is another). In the past, you would be safe in saying that if a vehicle had a safety device, it had to work. Today, my Out Of Province inspection manual states (from memory) that there is no requirement that TPMS should work.

 

For those interested, I have attached a copy of the OoP inspection criteria.

[DwayneGorniak]

You are missing the point Jim! Every technician out there works for a pimp! You asked about getting rid of the prostitutes! I am saying that as long as there are pimps, there will always be prostitutes. The changes need to start at the top! You can preach this theory all you want on the shop floor or at ground level to the prostitutes and it will never make a damned difference at the top because the pimps just plain don't fucking care! Pimps are Pimps and they will always find more prostitutes! And there a shit load of pimps in Alberta. You and I both feel that there needs to be changes made. That is where we agree. But I see all kinds of Dealerships out there on my routes and every single one I worked for in the past has been victimized by having pimps at the top! Just because you don't cater to the pimp yourself, that doesn't mean that the pimp won't find another prostitute. You may be an old prostitute that no longer wants to get lucky any more. You have most likely been fucked to hard in your past experiences in life and have learned your lessons. But are all the other prostitutes beside you the same way? Keep in mind that I am also generally referring to every other dealership out there. Also, my point about the Mustangs is that pimps will always find a prostitute to cater to their needs. How many Mustangs stay stock?

 

Are you saying that it is O.K to punch holes through the Ozone layer only on weekends, but not on week days?

[Jim Warman]

You are right about that part, Dwayne...but it a "checken or the egg" kind of argument. Every one will swallow or gargle on command because everyone believes that the guy down the street will do it. Nobody wants to blink first.

 

And you wont convince me that we, as techs, aren't part of the problem. We are all waiting for the store to grow some balls but few of us are willing to participate....

 

Me? I get to be a little bit ballsy because I have a better understanding about what is acceptable and what isn't under the hood of a car. What too many techs fail to consider is that, should something horrible go wrong, you will be held accountable.

 

Audreys Escape popped a brake hose. An apprentice ordered one brake hose... until it was noticed that the other three were cracked... And what is shameful is that we do all her oil changes. This isn't some "pimp at the top"s doing.

 

We are all guilty and nobody wants to move first. You wouldn't have pimps is if you didn't have hookers and you wouldn't have hookers if they'd keep their legs together.

 

We need to stop trying to assign the blame everywhere but at home and accept that, as part of the problem, maybe we should become part of the solution.

[DwayneGorniak]

Then walk up to the pimps office and tell him how you really Feal! That is also a general demand to all prostitutes out there. Let's see how far that gets everyone! That is my point! Let's see you all do it! I dare you all!

[mchan68]

Well, not to stray too far off topic, here's a situation that I would love to hear Jim's opinion on.

 

My Fleet Sales manager (who also happens to be in charge of truck sales, what a joke that is) approached me about three weeks ago with an unusual request. A 2011 F-350 truck came in on the hook as a no-start/engine runs rough complaint about six to seven prior to said "request". After a very brief pre-liminary inspection, I quickly determined the truck to have been fueled up with GASOLINE (the truck is a 6.7L). At this point, I started a Hotline contact just to make sure I have a "paper trail" to back me up on the quote I was about to submit. As you can imagine, the reaction of the truck owner was less than pleasant upon being presented with the quote. I am then informed that the customer denied fueling the truck up with gas. Soooooo, at this point I noticed the truck was left in a bit of a pig sty. I happened upon a bunch of fuel receipts lying around the interior, so I grabbed the most recent one with the pump number and date as well as address info. A quick phone call to the station CONFIRMED it is a gas pump. Upon being presented this information to the customer, now the story is changed to, "well I lent my truck out to a buddy to move his fridge. HE must've been the one to fill it up with gas". I don't give a rat's ass WHO filled it up, the bottom line is, gas is in it, and that's why it doesn't run (or run very well). Such a shame too, it was a fully load Lariat with less than 5K on the clock (not even due for it's first oil change yet!!!).

 

Here's where it gets hairy. Said fleet manager comes and approaches me, and asks me, "Mike, how can put this through under warranty?". ARE YOU FOR FUCKING REAL?!!!! That's when I explained to him very briefly what warranty is supposed to cover and what it won't. And WTF was it his business anyways? Well, apparently it was one his buddy's truck. AWWWWW, too bad so sad. So, the truck ended up sitting on our lot for another three weeks before it ended up being towed away to another shop after I was paid for my diag.

 

Fast forward to about three weeks ago. This fuckhead approaches me, and reminds me of this truck. He goes on, to inform me that the owner now wants to trade this truck in for a '12 or '13 model year truck. Apparently, he managed to get the truck "fixed" at Summit Ford for $2000, and now runs with no issues. But since, there was a CuDL file opened, with it fully documented that the truck has been filled with gas, and the customer declined to proceed with the needed repair, the "manager" is now concerned about having this information in it's history, and asks me to remove it!!!

 

Before I go on, I'll wait for some of your opinions ......

[Keith Browning]

I didn't think that information could be removed and since it is on Ford';s computer system it certainly could not be removed by you. I also would imagine that Ford would not want that information to disappear.

 

My opinion is that YOU know what is right and YOU should do what is right.

[mchan68]

I didn't think that information could be removed and since it is on Ford';s computer system it certainly could not be removed by you. I also would imagine that Ford would not want that information to disappear.

Thank you Keith. And that is exactly what I told him, probably about three different times in three different ways. The English language is just so versatile. But I guess he fails to understand what "it cannot be removed" means. So, he replies,"Great Mike, so we just screwed this guy, and I guess we shouldn't be doing this again in the future, right?" To which I reply, "Well, how about diesel truck owners shouldn't fuel up their trucks with the wrong fuel and then end up at the dealer, expecting a repair to be undertaken, under warranty?"

 

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

My opinion is that YOU know what is right and YOU should do what is right.

It gets better. He even has the balls to ask me to "look at the truck" and "say that it is okay" on paper before they take the truck in, on trade. I was this close to telling him to go fuck himself, but I didn't. I simply asked him, "So, if I put through a fraudulent repair under warranty, and it gets charged back to the dealer, are YOU going to pay ME for the amount that I'm going to get debitted?" To that, he was quiet with a pause, and then just walked away. YEAH!!! I DIDN'T THINK SO.

[Keith Browning]

Good for you Mike! That whole post supports the part of this discussion that deals with individual accountability.

[mchan68]

Good for you Mike! That whole post supports the part of this discussion that deals with individual accountability.

And that is exactly the whole point of me telling my story. Getting back on topic, HE is definitely the kind of manager that will take one of these trucks in on a trade, with emissions devices tampered with, or removed and expect me to sign off on it. At least that's the sense I get. So what would YOU do, if you were in a situation like this, and the manager told you to sign off on the vehicle but you refused? What if he oversteps you, and goes to your manager or even the dealer principal?

 

This is the same manager that screwed up an order for 100 new Ford Focuses for our local parking control outfit, and ended up with all manual transmission Focuses on the first batch of the order that arrived (some of which we are STILL stuck with). Hence how I nicknamed him "Manual Tranny Manny".

 

This is the same manager that is trying to bring trucks from other dealers that need WARRANTY work done, and onto our doorstep, whether the truck really needs repairs or not.

 

And the real point to all this is, how do I handle a situation like this? I have thought about expressing my concerns and to put into writing to hand to our dealer principal regarding this man's tactics, but have held off. But for how much longer, I don't know. I just know that sooner than later, .

[Jim Warman]

Kudos, Mike....

 

You have been asked to perform acts which could only be considered fraudulent (illegal) and/or inappropriate. A simple "No, I wont do that" should suffice. Yes, you could put something into writing and send it upstream. Sadly, there is no assurance that those higher on the food chain aren't in bed with the fucktards and life could get tough - but I'm willing to bet that Ontariariario has the equivalent of Albertas Labour Relations Board and that a wrongful termination suit could get real messy for the people involved. This is where you need to gauge the prevailing winds.

 

"We just screwed that guy"? Ummmm, wasn't he trying to screw Ford? There's a difference? Fraud is fraud - doesn't matter if the receiver is you, me or the sign out front...

 

I can't remember how deep I went into this truck when I posted about it....

 

 

This is one I did an Out of Province inspection on. It had spacers betwixt the hubs and wheels - a flat out no-no. I flunked the truck. Now... you and I both know that this truck was going to have the wheel spacers there after the inspection process was complete. That is beyond my control. But if I am going to call this truck roadworthy, it is NOT going to have wheel spacers when I call it roadworthy. There is no sense in trying to appeal to my "decency" and "pretend" the spacers weren't there. If I am to lie FOR you, there is every chance I will lie TO you and I have now made myself untrustworthy.

 

We are judged by our actions... if we act like liars, we will be branded liars. If this idiot asks you to lie and sign off on your lie, his ass is clean and clear ("I did no such thing" can be stated with a suitable amount of righteous indignation while your ass is getting keel-hauled), he is bad. If you comply, it will be you that is bad.

 

I'm not entirely positive that there aren't some things happening around here that might give me pause - but I am sure that there are things that they know better than to ask of me.

 

I WILL lay in a snowbank at minus 30 if that is what it takes to please a customer... I WILL NOT sacrifice my integrity to achieve the same end.

 

IF.. IF this bimbo told you to sign off on a problem vehicle and you refused.... and IF he overstepped you and went to your manager, what are they to discuss? "That prick, Chan, wont tell lies for me. Why the fuck do you keep hiring honest people?". If this bimbo asked you to sign off on a problem vehicle and you complied and then something went wrong, you KNOW you'd get a good look at the bottom of the bus they throw you under.

 

Stick to your guns, Mike..... if you sign off on something wrong and it goes bad, looking in the mirror is how you will find the fall guy. They wont even bat an eye as they watch that fraudulent son-of-a-bitch get hauled off in hand cuffs.

 

"We're an honest dealership, now that we no longer have him.... Now serving number 35..... I have this mint condition truck over here... certified by our 'honest' tech....". I'm sure you catch my drift.

[Jim Warman]

Then walk up to the pimps office and tell him how you really Feal! That is also a general demand to all prostitutes out there. Let's see how far that gets everyone! That is my point! Let's see you all do it! I dare you all!

I do, Dwayne... but I am only one voice in a sea of voices. And ours is only one store in a sea of stores.

 

I don't know if I am unique in this business... my friends are my customers and my customers are my friends. Most of these people have known me since the 80s. I drink beer with them, burn dead animals with them (we call that barbecue, I guess), go to their kids grads.... People have come to trust my word - and, thankfully, because of how I am perceived, my mistakes are forgiven quickly.

 

Without my integrity, I am nothing. I could probably do quite well if I abandoned my scruples. Now that Den has built his mancave, I probably could - open a store dedicated to making black smoke.... But that ain't me. I feel strongly about many issues - clean air being one of them....

[DwayneGorniak]

Yeah, I know Jim. And don't get me wrong either. I wasn't pickin on ya for the sake of pickin on ya or anything like that. I was just trying to point out a fact and the way I feel. I feel that as long as there are so called pimps out there, there will always be a prostitute out there to take place of someone who no longer wants to be one or never wanted to be one. I have been in that situation many times. With the amount of foreign workers I see coming into this province these days, and with their work ethics, there will always be prostitutes. It's not really about which came first, as in the chicken or the egg reference. It's a matter of how to stop the prostitution all together which I feel just won't happen. Not in our lifetime anyway. This is kind of situation that needs to be brought up in legislation, but we all know how far that will go. Like you said, what politician wants to commit political suicide? But so as there are a shit load of pimps and prostitutes out there, no one will never stop the prostitution. I was also pointing out the fact that in places where the economy is the shits and jobs are not that easy to come by, no one is going to want to rock the boat. They will do what they have to, to take home a paycheck. Doesn't make it right. Just makes it a fact.

[lmorris]

Quote:

Jim Warman:(that reads as your and my hard earned dollars, Leon)

Never said I agreed with it Jim. I don't do CVIP's anymore, but no-one here would pass something just to look like the good guy.

I just said it happens. Besides, the original question didn't pertain to CVIP's, OOP's or any other inspection. From what I have seen of the Alberta legislated used vehicle inspection, there is nothing on there about modifications either.

So there you go, don't assume I endorse something just because I say it happens.....Just say'in....

So my answer to your question Keith is: No, here in Alberta there is no recourse to the dealership for selling said vehicles.