Troubles For Cummins And Navistar

[Keith Browning]

Just some articles in Forbes worth reading

 

Cummins' Slashed Sales Outlook Reflects Worries About Global Slowdown

 

Death By Hubris: The Catastrophic Decision That Could Bankrupt A Great American Manufacturer

[Jim Warman]

"Rather than eliminate nitrogen oxide via a bulky chemical treatment system that even the EPA questioned initially, EGR would make the motor do all the work by piping exhaust gas back into the cylinders and burning it again—a cleaner, cheaper, lower-maintenance solution, which would set Navistar ahead of the pack." ....... I think Joann Muller needs to do a little better research.

 

From what I've seen of the EGR systems as offered by Ford and by ITEC, I might suggest they try piping EGR flow from AFTER the DPF.

[Fredsvt]

Caterpillar tried that. Now they don't make highway engines anymore. A nice idea, poorly implemented.

 

A local limousine company, also with several custom limo buses has 2 with cats with the after DPF egr, both have been at cat more of the time, than they've been on the road due to EGR, SCR and DPF issues. And they both have constant engine overtemp issues. Both buses have only 15k on them.

[Keith Browning]

Caterpillar did just that Jim, they called it "CGI" of Clean Gas Induction. If anything that removed all of the soot being introduced into the intake system and as I recall contributed to cooling the exhaust gasses to improve EGR effectiveness. I do wonder though if any of the manufacturers did in fact consider or even test this concept for the mere benefit of reducing carbon in the intake and fouling coolers and valves however we have seen other methods used to help that situation. I believe improvements in engine calibrations have greatly reduced EGR soot loading on engines like the 6,0L and the 6.4L used an EGR Diesel Oxidation Catalyst to help crack hydrocarbons before reaching the EGR coolers and valves. I believe the 6.4L also took EGR only from the right bank and injector dosing of the exhaust for DPF regeneration only occurs on the left bank which prevented those wet hydrocarbons from entering the EGR system completely. Point is, there are a lot of things manufacturers can do to solve issues and I am sure we are still going to see more evolution and multiple combined approaches implemented.

 

Now "they" want to reduce C02 emissions... oh boy.

 

I also read that SCR on the 6.7L for example allowed ford to tune the engine to run leaner to improve fuel economy. This is documented in the 6.7L Coffee Table Book as well. Therefore it stands to reason SCR has a positive role to play not only in reducing emissions but improving efficiency.

 

 

In the end, no matter who it is building diesel engines today, there is significant expense in developing these emissions systems and implementing them. I am sure the cost is a bitter pill for them to swallow and that cost is ultimately passed onto the consumer.

 

[Jim Warman]

Don't forget that, in the very beginning, (before we saw our first 6.7s) I was under the impression that they were using SCR in place of EGR rather than to augment it.

 

 

I subscribe to one stock market news letter (Lord knows why since my stock market savvy is non-existant) that has been talking about the "death of the diesel" for some time.They claim to be on the inside loop but that merely implies that this is how they think they can part me from my money.

 

As we speak, the diesel engine options is what, $10K? I'm sure that that will change significantly with the next generation of engines.

[Keith Browning]

Hmmm yes. And the Ford Transit is supposed to offer a diesel option? Not only do we potentially have a new diesel to learn about and deal with but it will be interesting to see what emissions controls it (should "it" become reality) will have for us to deal with.

 

<sigh>

 

Coincidentally, my Cummins training goes into high gear next week as I finally get to step into a classroom. I have LOTS of questions!

[Alex Bruene]

Great course. Lots to learn... If you can stay awake during BETT.

[lmorris]

Hmmm yes. And the Ford Transit is supposed to offer a diesel option? Not only do we potentially have a new diesel to learn about and deal with but it will be interesting to see what emissions controls it (should "it" become reality) will have for us to deal with.

Our Ford trainer here in Edmonton has said there is no training in the works for the Transit diesel engine.

[lmorris]

I believe the 6.4L also took EGR only from the right bank and injector dosing of the exhaust for DPF regeneration only occurs on the left bank which prevented those wet hydrocarbons from entering the EGR system completely.

I was under the impression that the 6.4L used both banks for regen and Ford changed it to the left bank only on the 6.7L, to save the EGR valve.

[Keith Browning]

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

Hmmm yes. And the Ford Transit is supposed to offer a diesel option? Not only do we potentially have a new diesel to learn about and deal with but it will be interesting to see what emissions controls it (should "it" become reality) will have for us to deal with.

Our Ford trainer here in Edmonton has said there is no training in the works for the Transit diesel engine.

Does this imply that there is in fact a diesl coming? Or the lack of training chatter means he has heard nothing?

[lmorris]

Originally Posted By: lmorris

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

Hmmm yes. And the Ford Transit is supposed to offer a diesel option? Not only do we potentially have a new diesel to learn about and deal with but it will be interesting to see what emissions controls it (should "it" become reality) will have for us to deal with.

Our Ford trainer here in Edmonton has said there is no training in the works for the Transit diesel engine.

Does this imply that there is in fact a diesl coming? Or the lack of training chatter means he has heard nothing?

There is indeed an new diesel engine coming. His take is that there is nothing that different on the new one to need training for.