6.8 long block coming with oil in it?

YukonTyler · August 3, 2012

Odd one here. Have a 6.8 that came in a week ago with no oil pressure & knocking all over the place. Pulled the engine and the pan - shavings everywhere and 4 rod bearings hooped. Long block time.

Long block came assembled sans oil cooler and filter. Filter was on the cooler, which was in its own bag zip tied to the valley.

Took the filter off and installed the cooler assy. Installed the engine and then put the oil filter in afterward. Everything clears easier this way. I then filled the engine with oil and gave 'er a shot.

Decent power but had a rough idle. Couldn't find anything obvious - no missed connectors or vacuum leaks (smoke test). Drove for a couple days and came up with P0171 and 174. Also had a blue puff on startup out of the tailpipe. Freeze frame shows codes set @ idle, 39 psi in the rail. Checked again for vacuum leaks with smoke and propane. None found.

Checked fuel quality and pressure. All good out of the tank before the filter. Sample out of the filter was nasty brown. Let the sample settle and got a bunch of sediment. I figure that explains my lean code? Possibly? New fuel filter put my long term trims at idle down to -3% from beign pegged @ 25%. Short trims bounce from 0-4% and had prior been at 30%.

Still have a junk idle. Good power though @ the high end. Checked oil and way overfull. FRP pid drops after being primed by a key on cycle. Does not pass IDS leakdown test. Pulled the rail and primed the rail. No leaks visible out of the injectors but pressure still drops slowly. Possibly back into the tank via the pump I suppose. No long crank to start. But why high oil????

Drained the pan and pulled out 12 litres. Truck takes ~7. Put in 7 litres of fresh 5w20 and she idles like a dream. Did I double fill right off the bat? Would a long block with no oil cooler attached comes with oil in it?

Driving it right now to see if she builds oil again.

Jim Warman · August 4, 2012

Is this a Vulcan machine rebuild? I think these guys motor the engine to check oil pressure and compression before they ship it - they remove the cooler because it makes it easier and cheaper to build the pallet.

YukonTyler · August 4, 2012

Yup Vulcan reman. I think I just got burned big time. Spent a lot of time (8 hours) chasing those lean codes, playing with fuel samples, dropping the exhaust, vacuum testing, smoke testing etc etc etc ...

lmorris · August 4, 2012

That is exactly what happened. I know because I did the same thing on the last gas long block I installed.

Jim Warman · August 4, 2012

It is now that I am going to become a real, honest to yahweh, dyed in the wool, supreme dink.

Something I beat into the brains of anyone and everyone that pretends to work in our shop.

I don't care if you know how much oil goes into a motor. I don't care if you never see a problem with oil level if you use my method.... I don't care if you think my way is for "pussies".

The few times I do a service, I add the amount of oil that I "know" goes in the motor. I check the oil level. If it is OK, I know I put the drain plug in. If it is too high or too low... I have a concern and I need to sort it out before I turn the key.

If everything is copascetic (no, I do not think this is a word - but many years ago, it nearly was) I start the motor, watch the oil pressure indication. Once I have oil pressure, I look under the truck - it is at this time I check the trans fluid if applicable (and I usually find it takes two men and a boy to get the dipstick out because nobody fucking checks it but everybody says they did). I shut the engine down, do my paperwork, put stickers, do whatever for a few minutes and then recheck the oil level.

In 40 years, I have never had a concern based on oil level. Now and again, I get a service adviser asking me to adjust oil level on a car a customer is picking up because the customer is astute. That customer knows that we have charlatans in our midst. That customer has been burned before.

You can call me anal.... you can call me an idiot..... but - I did used to work with a Master Tech that put the same amount of oil in a 5.4 3V as he put in a 5.4 2V - obviously never checking his work (and it sometimes showed).

When I change oil, I check the oil level three times.... When I have a running concern, I check oil level simply because it is quick and easy to do... and can tell me volumes about the customer. If a customer asks me for an opinion of any sort, at some point I wind up checking the oil level,.

Basics.. start with the basics... A big part of my job is fixing stuff that can't seem to get fixed. I'm nothing special. What I usually find is a simple thing that someone else didn't feel was important.

<SOAPBOX MODE> = OFF

YukonTyler · August 4, 2012

I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong. I screwed this one up. The oil came off the gun to spec and I assumed that the engine was dry. I suddenly feel like an apprentice again.

Glad I got to the bottom of it, but I'm bummed that it took me as long as it did. This one will show up at the end of the month when I'm down a chunk of time. Lesson learned.

Buddy_M · August 4, 2012

Yes! I dont feel so stupid now. I replaced a complete 6.8 just over a year ago now, and didn't expect the engine to come with oil. Dumped in 7qt and fired it up, ran rough with all sorts of problems. Checked dipstick and found it way over full. Drained 7qt back out to proper level and ran just fine after that.

Jeff Clyde · August 4, 2012

I too am anal about fluid levels, it was instilled in me right from the get-go when I got into the trade. It is admiral when someone is " big" enough to say I messed up. As I'm sure many can relate to, it is hard to get some newcomers to learn this habit. Case in point, our oil change kid in the truck shop, knows how much oil a Mercedez takes in a Sterling boom truck; and "always" checks the oil level, before and after starting the engine; and will argue with you when asked if he checked it. Recently, as he was parking the truck and it "stalled" in the parking lot, first thing we asked him; were the levels good, to which he replied yes. Funny thing, nothing showed on the dipstick, and nothing come out when the drain plug was removed.

New engine for customer, very unhappy dealer principle.

Jim Warman · August 5, 2012

Checking the oil level before we release the truck is one of the things that separates us from hacks. Striving for that unattainable perfection has driven me for many years.

I still fuck up more than I think I need to.... but it isn't for things I can easily circumvent. A misdiagnosis is one thing... not checking basics is unforgivable.

My challenge to all of you.... prove that you are as good as you think you are.... Once again... I have proven that I am not perfect.... but I wont stop trying.

Keith Browning · August 5, 2012

I had a tech working with me on my team years ago that installed a 5.4L long block in a truck. He also installed 6 quarts of oil... and never checked the level. When he was done he wasted over an hour trying to diagnose the rough idle until he gave up and I had to step in. I adjusted the oil level and handed the keys back to him. I didn't tell him how I fixed it for a few days. Posted Image

Oddly enough I am involved in a discussion over at the monkey house and some jackass insists that what the engineers specify as the capacity is what goes in the crankcase. I contend that putting 15 quarts into a 7.3L, 6.0L or a 6.4L during an oil change will result in the oil level exceeding the full line. Same for dumping 13 quarts into a 6.7L.

I simply suggested putting in 1 quart less than specification then "adjusting" the level with the last quart. I must be an asshole for suggesting that we should fill any component or system with the appropriate fluid to the PROPER LEVEL. Are people really that fucking stupid that they don't understand that?

Jim Warman · August 5, 2012

What I was taught, back in the dark ages, is that the proper lubricant level of anything with a dipstick was determined by the dipstick. Every instructor, without exception, would be like ObiWan (Luke, put your faith in the dipstick).

There is nothing to be gained by NOT checking the dipstick - and everything to lose.

Bruce Amacker · August 5, 2012

is that the proper lubricant level of anything with a dipstick was determined by the dipstick.

I agree but know several techs/instructors that will argue this to the death. They "say" that the sticks are commonly marked wrong from the factory. In these situations, they put the factory recommended fill in the engine and re-mark the dipstick. Posted Image

I'm wondering who the dipstick is in these cases....

Posted Image

Keith Browning · August 5, 2012

On that note Bruce I recall a couple of instances where Ford had identified the affected vehicles and issues bulletins to replace the incorrect indicators and tubes. I don't think that one or two part issues should dictate a bad practice for all engines.

exmod110 · August 5, 2012

Well I have first hand experience with "incorrect" dip stick. 08 freighliner school bus with a M.B. engine had a oil consumption prob from day one and also had a plugged PDF. Once I started where the bus was sent to F.L to be checked, they did an inframe and came back consming oil at the same rate as b4. It went back again and the fix was a longer dip stick and a revised valve cover with the instructions to use 2L less oil during oil changes. While I always check levels b4 and after oil changes to ensure I didn't cock up this one was wrong from the factory! Good for us though we got an inframe for free at 160 km from F.L.

Jim Warman · August 6, 2012

Bruce, this is almost a Catch 22 situation. Do we trust a manual written by a technical writer most likely using a lot of cut and paste (the Ford manuals are full of erroneous info either introduced or perpetuated cut and paste manual authoring) in the hope that we in the field will discover and report the mistakes to SPECs. Hence Fords waning use of DVD manuals and their telling us to use the online manuals as these are "constantly updated".

If something goes wrong, I can waggle the dipstick under anyones nose and repeat "I did it according to accepted industry practice".

Don, one thing I have proven time and again in the past, if I have an engine that is using a lot of oil - more than the situation and apparent engine condition (oiling plugs, excessive blowby, oil in the air filter or similar would suggest), use the dipstick to determine if the engine is seeking it's own level. In some cases, the crankshaft can actually strike the surface of the oil or crankcase windage can suspend oil inside the engine making oil control difficult.

But we are getting away from an important fact. DON"T TAKE ANYTHING FOR GRANTED. The biggest part of my position at work is because other people take things for granted... Me? I must be from Missouri 'cause you can hear me saying "show me" all the time.

mchan68 · August 7, 2012

Every Ford FQR long block I have done to date so far, has come with oil in it, up to and including the one I did on a 2008 Focus last week. However, knowing this also doesn't stop me from checking the oil level to verify that there is oil in the engine BEFORE initial engine startup. I think it would be a bigger fuck up to start an engine up without oil in it, than starting it up with too much oil. I also check flexplate/flywheel bolt torque too (I had one once that came in with the flexplate bolts finger tight, years ago).

Jim Warman · August 7, 2012

"The human condition" is just a nice way of saying that the FuckUp Fairy came to visit. And the FuckUp Fairy is going to come and visit whenever she damned well pleases.

I've had rebuilts missing connecting rod nuts, valve seats, cam timing off, bad oil pumps, missing piston rings.... you name it. There's been times I've been a fuckup magnet and there's times I've been the author of my own demise.

One memorable occasion was a 6.4, according to OASIS it had never had a wrench on it before. Seven torque converter nuts was all there was to be found.

I propose that we are the final step in quality control - be it a PDI or installing a rebuilt whatever. The final choice is the one that we get to make. Does anyone slam dunk an alternator and close the hood without verifying the repair? "Well, the tag in the box says it puts out....."... and the bible mentions a talking donkey - none of this means anything is true..

A long time ago, some old dude told me to believe half of what I see and none of what I hear....

Brad Clayton · August 7, 2012

Quote:

One memorable occasion was a 6.4, according to OASIS it had never had a wrench on it before. Seven torque converter nuts was all there was to be found.

Had 3 of those back, to back, to back. Notice the brown shading around the torque convertor bolt hole at the 9 o-clock position? disregard the red arrow, it was showing a right hand up pipe replacement with the trans out.

Clark · August 8, 2012

I don't think its outrageous to question a dipstick, but Im also not saying its a common issue. Allison has pretty specific procedures to check and re-calibrate dipsticks. But thats more due to OEMs being responsible for the dipsticks/tubes and transmission coolers. Motorhomes and other custom jobs can get pretty interesting. Does Ford give specs to check dipstick calibration? If an incredibly paranoid customer wants to spend the money, hey, why not.

Matt Saunoras · August 9, 2012

The last 5.4 3V long block I put in had several quarts of oil in the pan. Dumped 7qts in, ran great but had a rough idle. I can't even remember how I determined that was the problem but I remember being slightly urked as a result. What else is new Posted Image

cbriggs · September 28, 2012

I've seen a couple 6.4s with 7 conv nuts as well. I find most ford long blocks have oil in them, but not usually enough. Most require a liter or two top up.

I fired a 6.4 yesterday with the oil filter cap unscrewed, after replacing a cavitated/ perforated front cover (on a finning 550 with a vmac). Call it an oil flush..... Amazing how muck oil it dumps in 5 seconds run time. When the oil can symbol didn't go out in the cluster I knew exactly what I did.