dieseldoc Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 97' f350 manual trans. Engine was just overhauled, out on test drive and check engine light on for icp lower than desired. I expected this fault since whole engine was apart, died on me a couple times but restarted. Took truck out and pounded on it to bleed air. Parked and shut truck off, cleared all faults and it sat about 20 min. Started truck up to return to shop made it 300 feet and truck stalled, would not restart. Sat 10 min and would fire but die right away. Hooked up scan tool, checked faults and have continuous P0470 for exhaust back pressure.Monitor pids rpm was 170, vref 5.02, vpwr 12.34, ipr command 55% after cranking 20 seconds, icp_v is .38. that indicates to me no icp pressure building. I am leaning towards an ipr valve sticking or having issues. Just curious if I am missing anything or possibly on the right path. Thnaks for the input guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 IPR nut fall off and let the magnet slide around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 IPR nut fall off and let the magnet slide around? I fixed one like that. Had been to four shops and they couldn't figure it out. Found the nut and spacer lying in the valley. I had the truck running 10 minutes after opening the drivers door. The owner was pissed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 I wish it were that easy, was the first thing I checked used to find that a lot on the 3126 cats. solenoid nut is tight, connector is in good shape and pins are securely in the connector. Could a guy back probe in the connector and get a duty cycle type of reading to verify the signal is getting to the ipr valve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 1. The nut falling off is easy but it's always set codes for me and been easy to diag. It can cause a wicked surge with the throttle- on acceleration the solenoid slides back causing no HP oil, the truck violenty decels, the solenoid slides forward, the engine accelerates, the solenoid slides back, causing a bizarre driveline wrapup. 2. Yes, you can use a Fluke set on duty cycle to get the same reading in percent for IPR command. (Early IH 3 boxes do not have IPR% in scan data so this is how you do it) 3. Checking voltage on the IPR return wire will also tell the story- Approximate voltages- 10.5v KOEO is about right 12.0v idling If it's 12.2-12.6 on the return wire the IPR driver is burned out of the PCM If there's no voltage there's an open in the circuit from VBAT (the PCM relay) through the IPR and to the PCM. Beware the service info may have the wrong voltages in it. (pinpoint voltages) Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 so if the voltage is above 12.0 idling it is most likely a pcm problem, or if it is above 12.0 when it is acting up it is likely a driver problem in the pcm? I did notice one other odd thing. . . the batt light will come on at random a few minutes before it stalls. Is the pcm responsible for turning the light on as well? Just thinking out loud that maybe the pcm is at fault and showing multiple symptoms. . . that is if it is in charge of illuminating the batt light Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I thought this was a no-start? Don't worry about voltages much if it runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 The truck runs until it gets to operating temp than will stall out and not restart until it sits for an hour or two. will than start right up and run fine until it gets warm again. I have noticed that shortly before the stall, the battery light will flicker. Not going to say they are related yet. The truck had major engine damage to cylinder 7. Engine was completely overhauled( pistons, heads, oil pump, oil cooler, injectors, heui pump, water pump, turbo). I got this truck because of this issue, and it sat 2 years before the repairs were made. I fully expect this truck to have bugs for a while. I will troubleshoot further and let you guys know what I come up with. The truck was at 2 ford dealers and 2 indy shops for this exact issue before the previous owner gave up and sold it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Get a small ice pack and put it on the IPR valve for a minute or two when she stalls and see if it will start up right away. Most IPR's I see go bad are when they get hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshbuys Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Get a small ice pack and put it on the IPR valve for a minute or two when she stalls and see if it will start up right away. Most IPR's I see go bad are when they get hot. Or just pour some ice water on the IPR, it will have the same affect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 I just picked up a new ipr valve. it is my brothers truck and I finally convinced him that even if the ipr isnt the problem now it will be down the road. Since there was a major engine failure there could be debris caught in there that is causing the problem or may cause a problem in the near future. Now if I only had the time to get back to it. I have only replaced 2 ipr valves in the past but they too had the problem hot. will advise what I find hopefully this long weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 Installed new ipr valve yesterday. Test drove yesterday 25 miles, all was good. All pids picture perfect. Shut it off and restarted after hot soak of 30 minutes several times and all was good. Parked it last night and plugged it in. Went out this morning, started and it popped right off but oil pressure gauge never moved. Truck ran for 20 seconds or so and quit. No indications yesterday of any oil pressure issues. Checked oil level and is on the full mark. From what I read there is only two valves in the whole low pressure oil system. Is it possible a stuck filter bypass valve is dumpin all the oil back to the pan and not letting it build oil pressure? From my understanding of the system operation and flow diagram I should still get oil to my high pressure oil pump? Anybody run into this before? New oil pump was installed 50 miles ago as part of a complete overhaul, was a ford pump form the ford overahul kit. Thanks for the help guys, this truck is killing me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbudge Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 You say oil level is full, is that in the HP reservoir or the oil pan, or both? I vaguely remember there being a valve in the block that could do funky things with HP oil supply, but if the reservoir is full when it stops that shouldn't be it. The only thing that I have seen cause a loss of low pressure oil, especially after engine service, is silicone floating in the pan blocking off the pickup screen. Some guys seem to apply silicone with a mop and bucket with obvious results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted December 6, 2012 Author Share Posted December 6, 2012 Both the pan and reservoir were full. The engine stalled with no oil pressure because the reservoir went dry due to the lack of oil pressure. I am going to drag it back in the shop this weekend and try to figure it out. I will imagine the oil pump will be coming back off. Just hope it isnt a pick-up tube issue and the oil pan has to come off. . . . . My plan was to put a manual gauge in and verify no lube oil pressure, put an extra gallon of oil in and see if it helps if not get the back of the truck as high up as it will go and try again(should rule out a pick up problem). Than pull the filter and inspect the bypass valve in the filter base. Dump the oil and inspect pick up tube with borescope. If nothing found there than I guess fill it with oil and new filter. verify it still has the issue, if so off the oil pump comes for inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 My plan was to put a manual gauge in and verify no lube oil pressure The best place to do that is in this picture where the red circle is. You get a very accurate reading from the pump before oil pressure has a chance to bleed off in problem areas. Just remove that pipe plug and install your gage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 You mention that the oil pump was replaced... Did anyone think to inspect the front cover for wear/scoring while the pump was out? We need to be careful that we don't put ourselves on auto pilot (something I can do far too often) when we start slapping parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 We need to be careful that we don't put ourselves on auto pilot (something I can do far too often) when we start slapping parts. And we can guess what part you are slapping when you are doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 I looked at the cover and did notice a small scratch in the cover where the oil pump is. But it was barely noticeable and less than a half inch long. I so hope that is not the cause of the issue. The weather turned to crap here so wont be getting it into the shop this weekend. How small a scratch will cause an issue? I have never run into a base oil pressure problem on these before, always been high pressue system or fuel system issue. Obviously i dont see the volume of these engines you guys do, the help is always appreciated. thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Installed manual gauge and no oil pressure. I overfilled the engine and lifted the back end as high as my jack would lift it, still no oil pressure. Pulled the oil pump off and the front cover lookd great an the oil pump parts facing the front cover looked good. Pulled the gerotor pieces out of the housing and did not find any damage to the teeth of the gerotor parts. Flipped the pieces over and inspected them along with the pump housing and they are chewed to shit. There is what looks like metal transfer on the outer gerotor in three spots. The only thing I can think of is there was debris on that side of the pump or a small flake or piece of metal from the casting came loose and got in there. I cut the oil filter open and did not find any metal in it. Am going to ford in the morning for a new pump. Just wish I could pinpoint for sure the root cause of what happened here. . . . I just cant see it pulling anything up in the pump from the pan and it getitng in that location and doing the damage it did, without coming from the pump itself. I did not take the new pump apart and inspect and clean it or measure it before installing it. I will be looking the new oil pump over very closesly before installing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The pickup screens are very coarse and will let small boulders into the pump. Other possible problems causing your trouble can be an air bleed valve that has fallen out of the front cover allow all oil to pour directly into the gearcase, or the pickup tube has cracked. Both are common on Gen 1s. I have pics of both if you need them, and they're probably on DTS somewhere already. Hope you have neither. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 I dont think the pickup tube is the issue because I overfilled the crankcase 2 gallons and picked the truck up in the back about 2 feet and it did not help, anything is possible though. The air bleed in the front cover I am not aware of??? I know about the check ball in the block for the hpop reservoir. How can I check the air bleed to see if it has an issue? The service manual does not mention anything about a valve in the front cover. Do you think my oil pump damage is the cause of the no oil pressure or a result of something else? Thanks for the info Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I just checked a 97 today by lifting rear off ground. Oil pressure jumped right up once we got it high enough. Building 3100+ ICP @ 54% IPR but still didn't start. It isn't cranking fast enough IMO, but I did not notice actual RPM reading. I will do further inspection of cranking system. Customer has approved engine removal but I would like to hear it run first. I suspect it has battery cable issues. Sounds like it's cranking on one battery. Need to get an amp clamp. Sorry for the hyjack. Point was, I will snap picture of pump screen/tube if cracked. Going to be a couple days before we pull it apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Page 39-40 of coffee table book for lube system. I don't see the air bleed valve reference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 It's on the Gen1 7.3 engines and falls out of the rear side of the front cover causing no low oil pressure. I'm not sure if it is present on your model year. When it happens it's really difficult to diag. http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/forums/ubb...=true#Post41843 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The one I'm working on is a 7 y/o Jasper rebuilt so who knows what they used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.