Stall with no restart

[Fredsvt]

Knowing Jasper, probably some tin foil, or pieces of soda can.

 

I've gotten stuck with 2 warranty 7.3s from them, one with so much blowby it blew the oil cap off the valve cover on a gen 1 (1997)

 

The other,in a stupid school bus, no ICP build during cranking, found 1 upper injector oring leaking horribly, cylinder head had "divots" where o ring sits, like the had rusted so bad, they cleaned it up and tossed it on. Pulled that head, only to get a replacement with what looked like thick wire brush material stuck between injector cups and combustion chamber, sticking out where the injector would come out. Sent that one back for another head. They sent me one. I put it on, and the last two head bolts PULLED FRIGGEN THREADS out of the block on final torque. The bus went back to the school district it came from, with the pulled threads/loose head bolts so they could put another engine in it on THEIR dime.

 

My boss refused any more warranty work from them.

[dieseldoc]

I will check the esn Saturday when I get back to it. Ford had to order an oil pump for me, didnt stock anything but the gasket. I am pretty sure my front cover did not have one of those de-aeration valves in it. I will put the pump back on I guess and see what happens. I dont want to pull the motor unnecessarily but dont want to damage another oil pump or worse the engine either. I am hoping there was debris in the oil pump from the manufacturer on assembly( am pissed I did not take the pump apart and inspect first). Are the cracked pick tubes typically very obvious or not so much? am wondering if i put my borescope in the drain plug hole if I would be able to see something or not. Will let you know what I find out.

[Bruce Amacker]

The de-aeration valve is not visible from the front of the cover, only from the rear with the cover off. If it falls out there will be a big hole in the passageway that leads from the LPOP to the cooler/filter header. For S&G I'd take a rag and a blow gun and shove it into the oblong passageway leading from the LPOP and blow some air in there. There should be "some resistance" rather than all of the air blowing directly into the cover/pan. This might also show another catastrophic failure if there is one. (have the oil fill cap off)

 

In your previous post you did the 2 gal over/jack up trick which would rule out a cracked pickup tube. I've seen airlocks mess with people, too, when you button it up run the starter with the oil filter off until oil pours out. Many times a LPOP will not want to prime because it has to push air out as well as suck oil up from the pan.

 

Good Luck!

 

[dieseldoc]

Thanks Bruce, I will try that. Is it the older engines(94,95) or later engines(96,97) that have the valve. I'm not 100% but Im pretty sure my cover did not have the valve in the back of the cover, but will definitely check with air. Before I pull the oil pump off I did pull the oil filter and crank it twice for 30 seconds with no oil coming out. I am thinking there was something wrong with that other pump. I plan to keep working backwards as I go, put new pump in and leave the filter off to be sure I have oil there first. Than check the oil reservoir, etc. from there. Hopefully was just a pump issue and will finally get this damn thing on the road for more than 20 miles without an issue. Been a pain but have learned quite a bit from it.

[Bruce Amacker]

IIRC it's earlier engines than yours that have the valve, like'94-95.

 

[dieseldoc]

Well I got the new pump and housing yesterday. Inspected it very closesly and it took me 45 minutes with a file and emery cloth to get the big metal machining slag, and rediculously sharp jagged edges cleaned up. If the original "new" oil pump looked like this one it is no wonder it shelled the pump and housing out. I drained the old filter and cut it open, thank god no metal on the clean side of the filter. Put the new pump on and built oil pressure, fired up and ran nice. Mechanical gauge showed 50 psi. Took it out and beat the hell out of it for 30 miles to bleed the air out of high pressure oil system. now time for a cold soak and see how it does. . . . .

[dieseldoc]

Well got 3 days and 150 miles on the truck with no issues so far. Thanks for all the help with this thing guys. One more week of test driving without issue and I am sending it home, hopefully to not see it for a long time. Thanks again.

[ktmlew]

Mine was apparently a bad cam sensor and really poor battery connections. Not sure how i missed lack of RPMs during initial inspection? Turns out the truck has been setting for nearly 1.5 years. I suspect the cam sensor died and they cranked the HP reservoir dry. It was possibly a fluke that when we jacked the rear-end up the oil pressure came up. Will find out tomorrow. Parked the truck nose high to see if the LP oil pump/screen has an issue.

 

Now I'm told original complaint was lack of power/stalling.

 

Test drove while watching ICP_V, IPR, Inj PW, EBP, RPM, MGP, VREF, VPower, etc. No issues found. Should have done a recording. I was ridng shotgun so had plenty of time to observe data closely.

 

This vehicle is the one in my Cyl Cont thread.

[ktmlew]

OK. Truck set for a week slightly nose high and it's a no-start again. It was cranked for about 20 seconds for four attempts. HP oil reservoir is down about 2.5". Didn't fire a lick and no oil pressure reading on dash.

 

I've told the guy that lack of maintenance creates issues with injector stiction. He is the type that wants a quick "one part" answer. My experience with 7.3's is that they rarely only need one part. By the time they end up in the shop there are usually several problems that need to be addressed to make them run right.

 

When I last worked on it I plugged in the block heater to see if that helped it start. Doesn't seem to work.

[dieseldoc]

Sounds to me like you have a very similar issue to mine. I would start by checking for low oil pressure and flow. It sure seems to me as though you have either a oil pump or pick up tube problem. I started by checking for pressure at the block by the oil filter near the bellhousing, I had no pressure. I overfilled the engine 2 gallons and lifted the back end up, still no pressure. Pulled the oil filter and cranked several times for 30 seconds and not a drop of oil. Pulled the oil pump out and found it damaged. Doesnt take much damage to the pump gears themselves or the housing. Replaced the pump and housing and it is running strong with good oil pressure now. Make sure you look over the new pump and clean up the sharp edges before installing it.

[ktmlew]

Sounds to me like you have a very similar issue to mine. I would start by checking for low oil pressure and flow. It sure seems to me as though you have either a oil pump or pick up tube problem. I started by checking for pressure at the block by the oil filter near the bellhousing, I had no pressure. I overfilled the engine 2 gallons and lifted the back end up, still no pressure. Pulled the oil filter and cranked several times for 30 seconds and not a drop of oil. Pulled the oil pump out and found it damaged. Doesnt take much damage to the pump gears themselves or the housing. Replaced the pump and housing and it is running strong with good oil pressure now. Make sure you look over the new pump and clean up the sharp edges before installing it.

My biggest problem is the shop I'm working in won't let me follow through and finish the diag. We jacked the rear end up when first trying to start it a week or so ago. Oil pressure DID come up but I only started after disconnecting the Gp's and using joy juice. Even that took quite a while. THe HP reservoir was run dry due to bad cam sensor. Truck hasn't run for about 1.5 years.

 

I did check for ICP pressure & IPR duty cycle today while shop owner was out...building better than 3K ICP @ 55% IPR. No start, no smoke, no oil pressure. When I tried to run the buzz test last week it didn't make a sound when cold. Buzz test sounded normal after truck was run and good and warm. Did NOT run buzz test today. Brainfart.

 

These trucks have the junk round air filter. Mine in broken and upper "hat" is just flopping around. So here is my theory:

 

1. Likely dusted.

2. Injector stiction due to lack of maintenance.

3. Oil pump damage due to lack of maintenance.

4. Block heater doesn't work.

 

Combine cold engine, low compression & injector stiction = long crank time. Long crank time with "weak" oil pump = low HP pump reservoir oil level after cranking. If it started, ran a minute or so and stalled, w/o building oil pressure, I would concentrate primarily on the oil pressure issue. Those normally are just a worn oil pump issue. We are planning on replacing the oil pump before condemning the pick-up. One problem I have with the vehicle is it's a Jasper engine. No idea what combination of parts they used.

 

I would like to get the truck INSIDE so it will warm up, pull VC's and inspect UCH as it misfires under load, pull GP's and do a comp test. We could then also easily lift back of truck to see if oil pressure pops back up.

 

I hate to pull the engine, replace the oil pump & screen, then find it still doesn't start cold due to injector stiction. Plus if it's dusted, it did show considerable "blow-by" when running, it may not start great even after 4K of repairs?

 

 

I wasn't intending to hijack your thread. Just figured it would make sense to keep like vehicles/problems in one thread.

[ktmlew]

Cold buzz test makes no "buzz" but passes, using AE Scanner? So is it injector stiction or weak IDM? No codes. Cranks at 140RPM, 3K + ICP, ICP_V 4V @ 54% IPR, 4ms inj PW. I have not checked GP amp draw, but the light cycles on for about 20 secs. When I've seen a few bad GP's the light would short cycle? It was 25* here last night.

 

It DID have a buck/jerk misfire @ around 2300 on last test drive. Thought it might have UCH issues causing misfire. Just found my old style inj connector test plug. Will do some further testing if shop owner will let me...

[Fredsvt]

On a DIT, glow plug light is meaningless as far as how many GPs actually work. The PCM turns the light on for the amount of time IT wants, regardless of whether there's power at the plugs or not, or if there's any burned out.

The light can come on, and the PCM may not turn on the GPs if warm enough, or the lights out, when cold and the GPs stay on for up to 2 minutes.

 

If you have no buzz, the injectors are probably sludged up. And yes, even though they make no noise, as long as they are electrically connected to the IDM, they will show a "pass".

 

If you use a starter button w/koeo, from under the hood, when ICP builds, can you hear the injectors "click". It's very obvious when they are turned "on" by the IDM w/enough ICP voltage. If you hear them click and no attempt to fire, and no smoke, they're probably no good, not delivering fuel cold.

 

The "gas like" misfire/hesitation at 2200-2500 rpm, loaded or unloaded, usually with a bunch of blue smoke, I've found is indicative of injectors that are borderline, as long as base engine is ok.

[ktmlew]

On a DIT, glow plug light is meaningless as far as how many GPs actually work. The PCM turns the light on for the amount of time IT wants, regardless of whether there's power at the plugs or not, or if there's any burned out.

The light can come on, and the PCM may not turn on the GPs if warm enough, or the lights out, when cold and the GPs stay on for up to 2 minutes.

 

If you have no buzz, the injectors are probably sludged up. And yes, even though they make no noise, as long as they are electrically connected to the IDM, they will show a "pass".

 

If you use a starter button w/koeo, from under the hood, when ICP builds, can you hear the injectors "click". It's very obvious when they are turned "on" by the IDM w/enough ICP voltage. If you hear them click and no attempt to fire, and no smoke, they're probably no good, not delivering fuel cold.

 

The "gas like" misfire/hesitation at 2200-2500 rpm, loaded or unloaded, usually with a bunch of blue smoke, I've found is indicative of injectors that are borderline, as long as base engine is ok.

 

 

OK. Need to amp clamp the GP's to see if they are working. The ones I've seen with a short cycling wait to start light had some shorted glow plugs. Need to just test the amps draw and quit wondering.

 

I assumed the lack of clicks/buzz was either sludge or stiction. Buzz is good and loud when hot. Oil has been changed recently although we have no idea what oil they used.

 

Didn't know you could hear the injectors click when cranking? Very cool! I wasn't sure about an injector creating an intermittent misfire. Usually found issues with injectors with CCT. This one sounds like crap when running CCT but doesn't flag any holes.

 

I briefly discussed this vehicle with the shop owner this afternoon. He doesn't believe there could be multiple injectors "bad" at one time. But he also doesn't read very well and doesn't know what to do with scanner data or freeze frame.

 

I told him we need to pull the valve covers and do a compression test when we first strted messing with it. It needs an oil pump and/or a pick-up screen. Likely a set of injectors. But I think it's dusted which makes all the rest irrelevant.

 

My biggest issue with the shop owner is he is in such a hurry to diag vehicles. If it takes more than 5 minutes he wants to kick it to the side and work on something else. He has never worked at a dealership and has zero formal training. But 27 years of "experience" running a one man shop.

 

I hope to find a different place to work next week.

[Jim Warman]

Lew... does the boss charge for diagnosis? This is an important consideration in this day and age. Back in my early days, we could lump things into a tune up - major or minor and, during the course of the tune up, a compression test, inlet manifold vacuum check, fuel pump pressure and/or vacuum test would cover all of the bases. Diagnosis was generally "free".

 

With 1973 ( EGR valves, no lead fuel and low compression - and miles of vacuum hose ) we saw the first major increase in diagnostic times. Most shops were reluctant to charge diagnostic time because it was feared that the customer would find a shop that didn't.

 

Today, I do spend a lot of time doing "driveway" diagnostics. I look for the signs of a "pattern failure". Some diags, I can safely order parts and have the girls book a time for the customer. Other times, I declare that this problem requires further diagnosis (automotive triage, if you will).

 

$140 is the base scan tool charge. Free diag is for shops that will either bleed the customer dry or go broke.

[ktmlew]

Lew... does the boss charge for diagnosis? This is an important consideration in this day and age. Back in my early days, we could lump things into a tune up - major or minor and, during the course of the tune up, a compression test, inlet manifold vacuum check, fuel pump pressure and/or vacuum test would cover all of the bases. Diagnosis was generally "free".

 

With 1973 ( EGR valves, no lead fuel and low compression - and miles of vacuum hose ) we saw the first major increase in diagnostic times. Most shops were reluctant to charge diagnostic time because it was feared that the customer would find a shop that didn't.

 

Today, I do spend a lot of time doing "driveway" diagnostics. I look for the signs of a "pattern failure". Some diags, I can safely order parts and have the girls book a time for the customer. Other times, I declare that this problem requires further diagnosis (automotive triage, if you will).

 

$140 is the base scan tool charge. Free diag is for shops that will either bleed the customer dry or go broke.

I agree 100% with your opinion. The problem is Advance Auto Parts and their like, offer "free" diagnosis. Or at least a free code scan, battery/charging system test etc, which usually results in them selling an o2 sensor, gas cap, battery & alt, etc.

 

The Indy shops have pretty much instituted a one hour diag fee maximum. The management figures if you need more than an hour you don't know what you are doing.

 

I am soooooooo burned out on working for people that can't do my job but insist they know more about how I should be doing my job. If a worker has bad habits then I have no problem with addressing those but to suggest I run as few tests as possible, when experience has shown I need to CMA, I get pissed.

 

Not sure if the above makes sense...

 

I have no idea what is going to be done with the truck in this thread. I didn't work any last week. Zero hours worked. The shop owner just doesn't believe it could need a cam sensor, oil pump and /or pick-up, plus all the injectors. If I can't convince him of that then there is no point in continuing.

 

So far as I can tell I'm done with it. I LOVE fixing shit. I HATE working for someone else...

[ktmlew]

Originally Posted By: Fredsvt

On a DIT, glow plug light is meaningless as far as how many GPs actually work. The PCM turns the light on for the amount of time IT wants, regardless of whether there's power at the plugs or not, or if there's any burned out.

The light can come on, and the PCM may not turn on the GPs if warm enough, or the lights out, when cold and the GPs stay on for up to 2 minutes.

 

If you have no buzz, the injectors are probably sludged up. And yes, even though they make no noise, as long as they are electrically connected to the IDM, they will show a "pass".

 

If you use a starter button w/koeo, from under the hood, when ICP builds, can you hear the injectors "click". It's very obvious when they are turned "on" by the IDM w/enough ICP voltage. If you hear them click and no attempt to fire, and no smoke, they're probably no good, not delivering fuel cold.

 

The "gas like" misfire/hesitation at 2200-2500 rpm, loaded or unloaded, usually with a bunch of blue smoke, I've found is indicative of injectors that are borderline, as long as base engine is ok.

 

OK. Need to amp clamp the GP's to see if they are working. The ones I've seen with a short cycling wait to start light had some shorted glow plugs. Need to just test the amps draw and quit wondering.

 

I assumed the lack of clicks/buzz was either sludge or stiction. Buzz is good and loud when hot. Oil has been changed recently although we have no idea what oil they used.

 

Didn't know you could hear the injectors click when cranking? Very cool! I wasn't sure about an injector creating an intermittent misfire. Usually found issues with injectors with CCT. This one sounds like crap when running CCT but doesn't flag any holes.

 

I briefly discussed this vehicle with the shop owner this afternoon. He doesn't believe there could be multiple injectors "bad" at one time. But he also doesn't read very well and doesn't know what to do with scanner data or freeze frame.

 

I told him we need to pull the valve covers and do a compression test when we first strted messing with it. It needs an oil pump and/or a pick-up screen. Likely a set of injectors. But I think it's dusted which makes all the rest irrelevant.

 

My biggest issue with the shop owner is he is in such a hurry to diag vehicles. If it takes more than 5 minutes he wants to kick it to the side and work on something else. He has never worked at a dealership and has zero formal training. But 27 years of "experience" running a one man shop.

 

I hope to find a different place to work next week.

 

 

 

 

I love quoting myself!

 

Finally looked at this truck again today. Needs GP relay. Pulled VC's and ran comp test.

 

1. 270

2. 310

3. 275

4. 200

5. 200

6. 110!!!

7. 275

8. 180

 

The above was with a cold engine that has not been started for a couple months. I figure anything under 325 is junk. Like to see 350 or above.

 

So it's junk!!! Just as I expected.