Need your inputs guys on 6.4l charge back issue

[fjubain]

08 6.4l F250 running rough at all time, dtc p0266 and p0302.Customer had replaced #2 and #7 injctor himself.Found that #2 cylinder manual compression is 0psi,fuel trims on #2 was 18%, crank case pressure over 20in-H20.Base engine concern,speaking with techhotline confirm tear down needed.Removed engine , found #2 intake valve seat and guide damage(head not serviceable), worn rockers on that cylinder and also #2 upper compression ring broken, cylinder wall had no cross hatch patern anymore.Re contacted hotline, prior approval for enhanced short block and two cylinder head, was cheaper than a long block( was recomended by holtline).Now vehicle repaired and running.Charge back, coments: injector was replaced retail as failure is cosistant with failed injector concern and not warrantable defect was found with injector replaced as retail repair is not warrantable.What does this mean?The injector replaced was not bad (just bad diag),Can a bad injector cause an upper compression ring to break ,excess blow by and wear out valve guide?Need you input from more experienced diesel techs and what procedure should i take to appeal claim? Thanks.

[Keith Browning]

Charge back, comments: injector was replaced retail as failure is consistent with failed injector concern and not warrantable defect was found with injector replaced as retail repair is not warrantable.

Is this sentence accurate word for word because it is not very clear as it is written?

 

If I carefully read your entire post, I get the impression the customer replaced injector #2 which is the same cylinder that had all the problems.

 

My first question to you is, is the diesel engine warranty still in effect? I think I know where this is going...

[fjubain]

Keith, yes the customer had #2 injector replaced which did not repair his concern at all, not knowing he still had any warranty coverage. He then brought his truck for diag and repair to our dealer.And yes vehicle was still covered under powertrain waranty.I keep reading and reading this assesor's comment and cannot fully understand , yes this sentence is word for word what he wrote.If I run parts coverage on injectors it's covered under emission and all base engine parts are powertrain.Before we appeal i would like some opinions.All diag was done following pc/ed and hotline request with prior approval contact.To our knowledge we have followed all steps correctly without any lies, covered our butts with documentation and report #.

[ktmlew]

Quote:

Injector was replaced retail.

As (base engine) failure is consistant with failed injector concern and not warrantable, defect was found with injector replaced, and retail repair is not warrantable.

This is how I would interpret their horrible sentance structure?

It still doesn't make a lot of sense. IMO Ford is trying to make this one customer pay...

[Keith Browning]

Check your warranty Manual on part coverage first. I don't know what the warranty is on Canadian vehicles but here in the United States a fuel injector with the base part number of 9F593 is covered by the diesel engine warranty 5 years/100,000 miles in a 2008 light duty truck with a 6.4L diesel engine.

[Jim Warman]

"Legalese" is going to enter the vocabulary. Somebody "determined" that an injector was faulty. That injector was replaced. subsequently, the motor had a miss (at this point it doesn't matter if it had the miss before).

 

Not having the manual in front of me, I am guessing that injector replacement is tech competency and that the customer opening up the motor is going to void the warranty or at least make a mess out of things.

 

Are we even sure that the replacement injector is a Ford unit?

 

So many questions, so few answers. I get the feeling that this isn't going to go the way you want.

[Alex Bruene]

As if we/they don't know about the inherent issues with cylinder 2 and 8 bore and piston failures in 6.4s...

 

How was Ford made aware of the fact the injector was replaced prior to the truck landing in your bay? Sometimes offering up too much info to the folks at the Mothership isn't the best idea. But, that aside, everytime I've had a burnt up piston, I've always replaced the injectors along with the short block-at the advice of hotline.

 

Perhaps it's just one of our "Rock-Star Assesors" trying to make a good impression?

 

Perhaps the customer is somewhat at fault for not reading his owners manual, therefore not knowing about the warranty coverage?

 

Good luck!

[fjubain]

Alex, Ford knew about the injector replacement from me talking with hotline and they wrote it in there report(this is my fault just being honest). Per customer replacing the injector made no difference at all in his concern.Yes Jim the injector was a Ford unit. Keith isn't 9f593 for gas engine and 9e527 for diesel engine??? Bottom line we repaired this vehicle following all necessary steps in diag (no fuel contamination or any debris found in high pressure fuel rail after performed step 28)check parts coverage , contacted prior approval.Thanks guys for your input.

[Alex Bruene]

Appeal it.

[Keith Browning]

Keith isn't 9f593 for gas engine and 9e527 for diesel engine???

Yes FRANK you are correct about the diesel injector part number however... both numbers are injector numbers AND both numbers are listed in the Parts Coverage Directory in the Diesel Engine Warranty section. I actually looked this up by reading the description. One says "Fuel Injector ASY" and the other says "Fuel Injector Nozzle." Regardless, it's still covered.

 

BIG YES on the appeal!!!

[mrbudge]

You always appeal a chargeback, it is the same as an insurance company rejecting a claim out of hand, they are hoping you roll over and take it.

 

What did you causal the failure to? You couldn't causal to an injector if you didn't replace it.

 

I am typically very reluctant to get the hotline involved unless mandated by the warranty policy manual ie prior approval. Hotline can only offer their opinion, and they can't see what you are working on, so what good is their opinion? It is also noted right on the hotline request screen that hotline input does not override the warranty policy manual. As you know, they will take information you give them in an effort to be thorough, and use it to burn you in the end.

Rant over.

[fjubain]

On what grounds should I appeal it? Should I stick to my story that vehicle came in with base engine compression concern and thats what we repaired .

[mrbudge]

What are you saying is the cause of the failure? If the cause of the failure is a broken ring, the ring is covered by diesel powertrain warranty. I have said to them in the past that I am not a mechanical engineer and cannot determine the cause of a mechanical failure. I would suggest that if there is no evidence of melting on the piston crown, then this damage is not typical of an injector fault, which is why you would not have an injector as a causal.

[fjubain]

Thanks Dave, I'm just stick to the truth of the hole story of my claim,low base compression, broken ring and block damaged. Also Dave there is no evidence at all of any melting on the piston.

[Alex Bruene]

Originally Posted By: fjubain

Keith isn't 9f593 for gas engine and 9e527 for diesel engine???

Yes Alex you are correct about the diesel injector part number however...

 

 

I didn't say that...

[Alex Bruene]

I think this is a good opportunity to let your warranty administrator and service manager take over, and just step back and watch from the side lines.

[Keith Browning]

I didn't say that...

Ow! Stop that!

[jimmy57]

I got to the bottom of this chargeback issue: MChan needs two $13K batteries for a '12 Focus electric, ".... which as of today has now determined the fix to be two new HV batteries (to the tune of $13,000 EACH), that I get to be the first tech in Canada (and maybe even all of North America) to replace. YEAH!!!"

This chargeback pays for one, somebody's gonna get another denial somewhere to balance the books.

[Brad Clayton]

[lmorris]

MChan's batteries is probably why my last 6.4L headgasket job keeps getting kicked back. The last comment we received was that the TSB lists the use of 6051 gaskets, not 6079....WTF...where is this phantom headgasket tsb for a 6.4L? Stupid thing is we have even used the 6079 gasket kit on 6L and got them paid under warranty.