amailloux Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 08 brought in, customer complaint is when slowing down, engine died, crank no fire, let set 30 minutes, restarted ok and appears good now. Happened 2 times. i found p2463 and p246c stored. Truck completed regen 30 miles ago, shows. test drive and dpf pids are all ok. checked maf, in spec, air filter dirty, replaced. egr ok. so i decide to run a service regeneration and during the regen, the truck dies and is a crank no start. grab fuel pressure gauge, 6 psi when cranking, actual fuel pressure slowly builds to 1500 psi and it will not start. vcv is 40-45% and pcv is 35%. ect and eot at about 210 degrees. fuel rail temp is 150 ish. i let set, and when fuel rail temp dropped to 140, the truck fired right up. i performed the high pressure fuel system test and it passes. i drive hard and get the temp up again, pull over and the truck does not die, but when shut off is a crank no start, low pressure untill fuel temp drops to 145 ish. fuel sample is ok. power balance shows ok, cranking compression shows #2 5% low. This is the second truck with this concern. the other truck had a restricted oil cooler also so I put a new cooler and hp fuel pump in. Is anyone else seeing this issue hot only. I am leaning toward reccomending a fuel pump at this point. Any thing else I should consider before making the call. I can duplicate and took a snapshot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 I put a high pressure pump in it. test drove and had 3 psi on the low side. I tested and had good voltage and ground at the lift pump. I replaced the lift pump and now I have 6 psi. I again drove until the fuel temp is 150, and the vehicle cranks and starts, but has a slightly extended crank. maybe 4 seconds until pressure builds. I then ran until the fuel was in the 160's and it had an even longer crank, but does start. maybe 5 to 6 seconds. When I drive normal, fuel temp is around 125 to 135, so I don't think the issue will happen again, I am just unsure of the extended crank hot. I did not perform the fuel return port leak test, or inverse test. Is it possible I may have 1 or more injectors returning fuel hot, enough to make it an extended crank. I am going to let the truck go, but am wondering if there is more going on. Has anyone had a fuel injector leak on the return that caused a no start? Immediately after startup, I can run the high pressure test and it passes when hot. thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 The HFCM contains the recirculation thermostat. I wonder if that may be causing fuel delivery issues to the motor when it's hot. Did you notice any contamination when you changed the low pressure pump? That's the only thing I can think of. If the fuel temps were too high it would set a code I believe, so they must be in spec if that isn't setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I'd be concerned about the 5% drop in relative compression on cylinder #2, considering which cylinders are typically at fault when 6.4s fail. I wouldn't spend too much of the customer's money on a starting problem, because dollars to donuts it's going to need an engine in the not so distant future. Perhaps a manual compression test would be a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I'd be interested to know the outcome to this. I have one here doing almost the exact same thing. This is an '08 that I just replaced with a drop-in Ford Quality Repaint assembly 5,000 kms. ago. It did have a P2291 flagged in continuous memory though. The customer has requested me to drive the vehicle home and back for a while, to try and duplicate the engine quitting on home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 I did a lot of research, and what I did was get the truck hot, and then I reset the fuel injector and pump tables. I let the customer come get the truck, and we will see. From reading the hard start diagnostic which has you reset the tables and see if the vehicle starts, I believe the cranking pump volume is learned. When mine failed, the pcv, and vcv were not coming up trying to increase pressure. I have noted this on a lot of vehicles. As the fuel heats and the viscosity drops, possibly the learned pcv and vcv values are just slightly too low. I was hoping it would learn the cranking volume hot, and then would have higher pcv and vcv values. Maybe a long shot. I did note the vcv learned value was 1% positive. This may just mask high return flow from an injector when hot. We will see if the truck returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Well, this truck is back with p246c and p2463. I went out in our 40 degree f weather, and it was a crank, sputter, and no start. I cycled the key 2 times with same results. if I just barely touch the accelerator pedal, it starts and runs fine. I did a relative compression test 2 times, and #2 is 2% low. As Alex stated before, it could use a manual compression test. I found the ect, eot, iat 1 and 2, egr temp sensors and fuel temp are all very close. I can duplicate the issue, but after running, i did not have to touch the pedal. it would just shudder, run very low rpm, surge a few times, then fuel pulse with comes up and the vehicle runs normally. frp actual is following the engine rpm, and dropping with it. mass fuel desired will jump up along with injector pulse width and then the truck will settle right into idle. Power balance looks good with injector strategy disabled. I took a fuel sample and it is clean. Customers only complaint was drive to clean filter message, no check engine lamp on, dpf codes were history. Any ideas? I am starting to go bald thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Is the DPF plugged? P246C and P2463 would indicate that could be an issue... 2% relative compression is the maximum allowable before doing a manual test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Dpf is not over .6 idle, and 2.8 and 2500. Don't believe it is causing the starting issue. ebp actual and desired are correct. Truck had a dpf in December, at 91K miles. After starting, truck runs normally. I am thinking I may have an injector issue causing the dpf to soot up quickly. It starts and chucgs at 350 to 400 psi for about 5 seconds, then the ecm ramps up the fuel, it smooths out, and falls right back to a normal idle like there is no problem. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 An injector issue is possible. That's the beauty of DPFs. They trap all the smoke that we used to use as part of diagnosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Undo the flange before the cat, and slide the whole exhaust back and put something in between them to keep the pipes apart and see how it starts after a cold soak. What do the DIST-REGEN-REQ and DIST-REGEN-COMPLETED PIDS read? What about the filter state? Part loaded? Clogged? I forget the pid for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Regen completed was 55 miles, and requested was 52 miles. Dpf load was "part loaded". At this point the dpf pressure is not over . 6 psi at idle. Once started, it will drive and have normal power. Actually it runs well after the little starting hitch. I think I am going to check compression on the left bank, and can check for vapors from maybe a leaking injector wile I think about it and go over the data a little more. On a side note the same fleet had a driver fill another truck with gas 2 weeks ago. Replaced fuel system. Towed in and I got over a gallon of milky crap out of the tank. Looks like water emulsified by some additive. Been 280 miles on his fuel system. The mixture did not turn on the wif. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 What's the fuel like in this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Want me to send my guy over to see if he can smell any water in the fuel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Want me to send my guy over to see if he can smell any water in the fuel? Does he have a passport? We could use him up here. Sublet him out to all our fleets, he could just walk their lots checking each truck as it comes back from a job site. I would save them a lot of time and make us a lot of money. We could work you in somewhere with a consult fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 I have a big sample in a glass jar and it looks good and does not appear to have any contamination. Won't light with a lighter either. I started it cold this morning holding the accelerator down about 15%. Started normally, revved up a little, and then idled fine. I haven't checked compression yet, I have 3 other of their vehicles to get done, then I can think about it, do a little more testing, maybe talk with the fleet manager. I really want to fix it, but pulling injectors to do the inverse test, and return flow testing is gonna take some time. With a low cylinder every time I check relative, They may pull the truck and send it to auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Put the fuel sample in the freezer over night and see what happens to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Want me to send my guy over to see if he can smell any water in the fuel? Does he have a passport? We could use him up here. Sublet him out to all our fleets, he could just walk their lots checking each truck as it comes back from a job site. I would save them a lot of time and make us a lot of money. We could work you in somewhere with a consult fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 No water in fuel. I used a water detection paste in my sample. So I parked the truck inside last night due to snow. I came in and it had the exact same symptoms. crank and surge at 300 to 400 rpm and die. if I barely hold the throttle it starts, revs to 12-1500 and then i let off and it settles back down. I checked relative again for shits and it was 1% low, and 0% low. Began at start. oil level ok when short sticked. 5-6 psi low side. took another fuel sample. no dtc's. I checked the software level and it was correct. It seems like the ecm just needs a little more fuel. So I went to programming and chose PMI. It showed correct software and vin. Ids programmed the parameters. Truck started totally normal. I tried numerous times. Started normal each time. I let the ecm power down a few times. Started normally. I really have no idea what the deal is. I really can't call it a fix, as I have no idea what happened. Possibly in the past, had wrong data put in, and then flashed with the same vin. I will do some service and check the dpf. Probably let set outside in below freezing overnight and retest. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 After numerous starts, it happened again 5 times or so and then went back to being fine. Still searching for an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post amailloux Posted October 4, 2013 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 4, 2013 I got it. What I found is the app % was at .5%. When at .5%, the truck would start and stall, or surge for 5 seconds or so and then come up and then back down to idle. If I put my toe under the pedal and bring it to 0% it starts normally. I did this probably 20 times to convince myself it is the cause. If it is 2% or more it seemed to start ok. Must be some sort of Idle Validation in the software. When I did the pmi, I am guessing it learned .5% as the new 0, and then when the pedal returned fully, a new 0 was learned. I am fully confident a new app will fix it. I disregarded the .5%, as I thought there was no way in hell it would cause the stall and surge, if anything a slightly higher idle. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Nice find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Uhh.... Snow? Where are you? Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I got it. What I found is the app % was at .5%. When at .5%, the truck would start and stall, or surge for 5 seconds or so and then come up and then back down to idle. If I put my toe under the pedal and bring it to 0% it starts normally. I did this probably 20 times to convince myself it is the cause. If it is 2% or more it seemed to start ok. Must be some sort of Idle Validation in the software. When I did the pmi, I am guessing it learned .5% as the new 0, and then when the pedal returned fully, a new 0 was learned. I am fully confident a new app will fix it. I disregarded the .5%, as I thought there was no way in hell it would cause the stall and surge, if anything a slightly higher idle. I have run across this twice. It was never temperature or hot engine sensitive or related though. I discovered the APP % too and once I did, I realized that I could duplicate the no start by pulling up on the accelerator pedal and forcing the PID low and likewise "fix it" by lightly depressing the accelerator. It's not supposed to do that and a good AP will not do that. Weird isn't it? Agreed - good find! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 14 inches at my house in Casper, WY. Trees and power lines are down all over the place. 28 degrees, but going to be 53 tomorrow and melt it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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