6.0L History Question

[Mekanik]

Well we all know that the 6.0L has been a thorn in the side for Ford and us as technicians.  I’m curious though; this engine was used in more heavy duty applications before it was in an F-series or Econoline, right?  Did it have so many problems in an International chassis?

 

I was told by a Ford instructor a long time ago that the 6.0L is an International engine with Ford software that has caused it to be used beyond its limit, but is that really the case?

Are the fuel injectors different for Ford or International applications?  What about the EGR system, does International use the same EGR system?  What about headgaskets?  I know F650, F750’s don’t have that problem.

[lmorris]

I was told the same thing. Once Ford put the Emissions parts on it and upped the power it went down hill. I have heard from many who have worked on them in the International chassis that say they don't have the problems we see. I believe the injectors are the same. In 2003 when they first came out, the injectors couldn't handle the injection programming Ford needed to meet emissions. Ford had to rework the entire program to get them to run, it took awhile and it pissed off a lot of customers. That was the start of this fabulous 6 litre journey.

[Bruce Amacker]

Some of this is my opinion, backed up with many conversations with IH guys.  I feel there are much fewer problems with the VT365 than the 6.0 because:

 

The VT365 is rated at much lower HP and uses much lower ICP pressures.

The VT wasn't involved in a HP race the way the pickup trucks are.

The VT has a larger cooling system.

The VT has better airflow around the engine for keeping components cooler.

The VT does not have the same IDM (FICM) strategy as the 6.0 which wrecks FICMs.

The VT had better support from IH including many parts updates (Uptime Programs) that Ford (IH?) would not pay for.

IH typically doesn't bump warranty claims like Ford does, and IIRC, when IH Tech Support tells you to do something, they always pay for it.

The VT had better trained mechanics working on it from the beginning. I took a 2-3 day VT class at my local IH dealer in May of 2002 that included two engines- one we completely tore down, and another on a live run stand we did running diag on. This was early in the life or before the techs saw the trucks. I know many Ford techs did not get training until well after the trucks were on the road. I also took the 6.0 Ford class and I thought the IH class was better.

The VT is typically used more like a diesel should be used- no grocery getting, short trips, etc.  They had a load and ran down the highway more often.

The VT had a better air filter and probably a less restrictive exhaust than the 6.0.

The VT didn't have !#^^&*holes  putting chips and tuners in them and guys "rolling smoke". 

 

There's probably more reasons that will come to mind later....

 

[Bruce Amacker]

PS IH did change the EGR about '05 going to a different valve and separate module. They still had a lot of the problems the 6.0 did, just not to the level.

[Keith Browning]

Interesting topic. This leads me to ask more about IH's Uptime Programs that have been mentioned here in the forums in the past. Did IH make as many changes to the VT365 as they did to the 6.0L - or, to ask a different way - did IH engines see ALL of the updates that the Ford engines did like the communized cylinder heads and thicker head bolts for example?

[Mekanik]

That's interesting. So the injectors are the same, but they couldn't handle the Ford programming.

 

Up Time- is that kind of like if you've got one apart and you know there's an updated STC fitting and an EGR baffle so you go ahead and make the reapir even though it's not in for that problem?

[Alex Bruene]

VT only makes about 20 or 21 psi of boost...  Way less stressful on the the headbolts.

 

Most people that drive medium duty trucks, use them for work... Unlike alot of pick-up drivers that drive them because they want to get to the grocery store faster and with more smoke than his neighbor with a Duramax.

[lmorris]

Ford wanted to have a split shot injection cycle but the injectors couldn't turn on/off fast enough and would cause a very rough idle, sometimes a no start.

[Mekanik]

VT only makes about 20 or 21 psi of boost...  Way less stressful on the the headbolts.

 

Most people that drive medium duty trucks, use them for work... Unlike alot of pick-up drivers that drive them because they want to get to the grocery store faster and with more smoke than his neighbor with a Duramax.

 

That's a great qoute.  Totally true though.

[Bruce Amacker]

I have stuff in my files bout Uptime programs for VT engines, here's what I can pull from memory:

 

Air Management Update- a bunch of new parts, reflash, clean turbo.

Rocker arm update (IIRC) all new rocker arms

Rear gear drive- new drive gears for fuel pump (weren't hardened properly?)

 

I'm pretty sure IH would pay parts/labor for all ops.

 

 

[Steve Mutter]

Does anyone know how many vt365 engines were sold compared to the 6.0 powerstroke?

[Jim Warman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the 6.0s biggest enemy is the guy that bought it. This would be Mister "Diesels were made to idle" put a liter of ATF in the fuel tank in the winter, "I'll buy a chip to fix low power/boost before I visit the stealership".

 

You will never hear a white male north american say "I don't know".

[Mekanik]

You will never hear a white male north american say "I don't know".

 

Well said.

 

A little off subject but, I've always wondered about the 'oil leaks' on the 6.0L's. It seems like all the bed plate gaskets I was resealing was for some engine that has like ONE drip of oil on the bell housing. I've always thought that if this same engine was in a tow truck or a delivery truck it wouldn't be worth the customer's time to have me fix a teeny leak like that.

 

[Keith Browning]

You will never hear a white male north American say "I don't know".

  For the most part you are correct because as a species we typically tend to put pride above intelligence which ironically is stupid especially if you are one of those clowns that likes to try and baffle people with bullshit. I think "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer to give someone - especially if it is TRUE! You know what they say? "It is better to say nothing and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."  I have no problem telling someone that I do not know but I also state that I will try to find out more or look it up... anyone willing to adopt that strategy is a wise man in my book. Also, telling someone that you do no know something can be a useful tactic when you don't want to get involved in something.  Leave it to Jim to get us thinking philosophically!

[Jim Warman]

 

You will never hear a white male north american say "I don't know".

 

Well said.

 

A little off subject but, I've always wondered about the 'oil leaks' on the 6.0L's. It seems like all the bed plate gaskets I was resealing was for some engine that has like ONE drip of oil on the bell housing. I've always thought that if this same engine was in a tow truck or a delivery truck it wouldn't be worth the customer's time to have me fix a teeny leak like that.

 

 

 

If you sneak into "the Diesel Stop" (I've used up nearly all the user names I can think of), you'll see what some of these guys consider to be oil "leaks" - "where is it - I can't see it". This mentality infected some of our locals and, it turns out, the severity of the leak appeared to be related to who was going to pay for the repair.

[Matt Saunoras]

I say "I don't know" several times every day because it's the damn truth, I know very little perhaps just enough to get into trouble.  Every single day I run into something I never saw before, we all probably do occassionally just less frequently the longer we do this.

 

I also like to use my truck as a baseline for what I can expect out of a 6.0.  100k miles, 50k of them are my own. It's never overboosted, never overheated, never really given me any major problems since I've done all the "upgrades".  It did need a FICM and it's got half its original injectors. Those ones are getting changed within the next month, none ever went totally bad just a little stiction when it's cold. 

Under warranty (long before I owned it) it had a center housing replaced which is still in the truck.  Still on stock headgaskets/bolts and I won't change them until they need it.   

 

The ones that have never had any repairs are rare.  Keep on top of them and they'll usually last a while, let them go and be prepared for it all at once. 

[mchan68]

My truck is COMPLETELY unmolested from new..... save for a set of updated dummy rail plugs that went in immediately after I noticed a little bit of extended engine cranking on our parking lot after boosting another vehicle.

[Jim Warman]

My truck is COMPLETELY unmolested from new..... save for a set of updated dummy rail plugs that went in immediately after I noticed a little bit of extended engine cranking on our parking lot after boosting another vehicle.

 

A man after my own heart. They had a low mile 2011 or 12 on the lot recently at work. Attractive price and all. My son looked at it but the lift kit soured him. Half the people he works with have this "need" to change stuff and of course theose trucks are in the shop as much as they are on the road.

 

I'm pretty sure he's at about 350,000 kms or so on his 6.4  - a lot of it in the bush.

[DieselD]

My dads old 2004 which is now owned by a good friend is still ticking at 215k. I have done all the service on it since day one and besides a EGR failure(stuck wide open and not coked up) and a ficm(caused by low batterys for 3 months) its been flawless. Amazing what a little TLC does!

[Aaron]

My truck just rolled 190k.

 

Buddy of mine same truck but a manual trans just rolled 215k.

 

Maintenance makes these things live!

 

Got one apart right now with 229k on it and the cam's dicked in it, and the oil looks like it's been changed...oh, twice, including last week I when I did it.

[Aaron]

(My bad, those mentioned above are all 6.4 trucks)

[blown99]

As far as the uptime procedures go, the 03my engines received the air managment kit as Bruce's picture illustrated.  The 04 and up varied depending on the customer.  UPS received the best treatment.  They all received the updated oil cooler, coolant filter kit, stc fitting kit, turbo recon, updated rear gear train.  The 05 engines recieved rocker arms, rocker pedestals, push rods and rocker clips as well.  All received low coolant level switch's and programming.  The IH units eat FICM's as well.  I laugh a lot on the stuff that the ficm repair guys have on their websites claiming heat and vibration from the module being mounted in the engine bay being the cause of the failure.  The DT uses the same ficm with NO issues.  The vt 275 has the ficm mounted on the chassis and has the same failure rate as the 365.  We used to have NO failures on the ficm until the programming was changed to mask failing injectors caused by stiction.  Injectors are the same between the two manufactures.  IH for a while was replacing all the injectors if you had more than a couple that had failed.  Head gaskets are not an issue on the IH chassis.  With lower ICP, lower engine speed (2600 rpm) less boost, the engine is not stressed like the Ford application.

[mchan68]

 

Got one apart right now with 229k on it and the cam's dicked in it, and the oil looks like it's been changed...oh, twice, including last week I when I did it.

I have a good 6.4L cam and a good set of roller lifters in my possession if the guy is cheap enough that he doesn't want to pay full coin for a new set.

[Aaron]

Guess I forgot to hit send previously.

 

I will definitely keep it in mind, PM me what kind of dollars you're looking for, and I can pass it along to the boss.

 

At this point, with the overall condition and maintenance (or lack thereof) I'd like to long block the thing or at least slam a used one in it.

 

But we'll see what happens. The truck is in rough shape, it's been a farm truck it's whole life.