Andy Christensen Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 We just had a call from an area grower wanting to do an EGR delete on his 06' and 05' 6.0 powerstroke. We have done them on the 03' without any after effects. However, I think we may have an issue with the 05-06' throwing codes after the delete. Is there an upgrade for these 05' to prevent codes being thrown after an EGR delete? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 You probably aren't going to get a lot of help or sympathy on this forum. That being said, you will need a custom off road tune to turn the EGR off as the strategy looks at the IAT and IAT 2 difference to see if the valve is allowing flow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I don't think "sympathy" is the right way to look at it. Aaron has actually provided help with the best answer. An aftermarket or non-OEM modification does not have an OEM "fix" that can be applied so a custom calibration is needed. As a general rule, the common thinking within this community is that emissions controls are a good thing and that those of us in the industry have a responsibility to preserve them. it is understood that some emissions controls can affect performance, efficiency and even reliability and we recognize the desire for some truck owners to eliminate them. The 6.0L engine is a prime example and the EGR system is problematic. There are some of us that are mod-friendly so don't take this the wrong way, your question is a good one. I am just surprised that an instructor in a public school system is allowing this be taught especially since defeating emissions controls is a violation of federal regulations. By the way, welcome to the DTS! It is good to see that there are still some school sytems that have vocational programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Christensen Posted November 8, 2013 Author Share Posted November 8, 2013 Thank you. I would have guessed that was the cure but needed to ask. Area grower/farmer had an 04' and had some serious cavitation from the EGR resulting in seepage of antifreeze into the cylinders and consequently warping of gasket. Not sure what caused his 04' to have an increased effect but the effects were pronounced. He did not want the same to happen to his 05 & 06' and had inquired about this with me. Was not looking for sympathy or help, just adivice and sorry if I had offended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmantech Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Andy you have not offended anyone. Welcome and keep asking questions and help out when you can. I learn more from these good discussions than anything here at the dealership. EGR failures caused by restricted oil coolers do happen, But when repaired they are fine, proper coolant maintenance would be the best thing for this guys new truck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Uh Batmantech........your post count just turned murderous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 ANDY! No offense taken - I just wanted to be sure that you understood the crowd you just joined. I have question for you though. You mentioned that this guy said he had engine cavitation caused by his EGR cooler failure. Not too sure where he got that from but EGR cooler failures do not cause cavitation erosion. BOTH are caused by cooling system issues however. Some might argue that cooled EGR systems contribute to the degradation of the anti corrosion inhibitors... The real cause is poor maintenance. Also, from what I know at this point, there are not really any major issues with cylinder cavitation on 6.0L engines. Failed cylinderr head gaskets on these engines are caused by over-boost conditions due to sticking turbochargers, EBP sensor issues and some aftermarket tuners/calibrations that allow high boost. Since they are laminated steel gaskets they don't actually leak coolant. They only leak combustion pressure once the seal has been breeched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmantech Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Well said Keith! Brad...... I'm feeling slow today...murderous????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Post count was 187...police talk for a homicide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbudge Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 ANDY! No offense taken - I just wanted to be sure that you understood the crowd you just joined. I have question for you though. You mentioned that this guy said he had engine cavitation caused by his EGR cooler failure. Not too sure where he got that from but EGR cooler failures do not cause cavitation erosion. BOTH are caused by cooling system issues however. Some might argue that cooled EGR systems contribute to the degradation of the anti corrosion inhibitors... The real cause is poor maintenance. Also, from what I know at this point, there are not really any major issues with cylinder cavitation on 6.0L engines. Failed cylinderr head gaskets on these engines are caused by over-boost conditions due to sticking turbochargers, EBP sensor issues and some aftermarket tuners/calibrations that allow high boost. Since they are laminated steel gaskets they don't actually leak coolant. They only leak combustion pressure once the seal has been breeched. Not to hijack the thread, but ESP prior approval just called me incompetent (their actual word) for saying that an oil cooler or egr cooler will not cause head gasget failure by themself. Oh well, I guess I can live with that. After two days of arguments they paid the claim anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Not to hijack the thread, but ESP prior approval just called me incompetent (their actual word) for saying that an oil cooler or EGR cooler will not cause head gasket failure by them self. Oh well, I guess I can live with that. After two days of arguments they paid the claim anyway. Well that was mighty unprofessional of them. I used to frequent the Hot-Line more in the past and there are a couple of really good diesel guys that are even willing to take the time to explain things. I couldn't imagine one of those guys calling someone incompetent. I wonder how long he will last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 For informational purposes only. Typically a blue engine sticker on the right valve cover of a 2005 will not set a check engine light. A red engine sticker indicates California emissions and will always set an insufficient EGR flow code for 05, 06, 07 and possibly years prior to that also. This is not set in stone however, there are atleast 100 different 6.0 calibrations/tear tags out there plus all the updates throughout the years. Each one with differences unknown to nearly everyone but the engineer who wrote the calibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 For informational purposes only. Typically a blue engine sticker on the right valve cover of a 2005 will not set a check engine light. A red engine sticker indicates California emissions and will always set an insufficient EGR flow code for 05, 06, 07 and possibly years prior to that also. This is not set in stone however, there are atleast 100 different 6.0 calibrations/tear tags out there plus all the updates throughout the years. Each one with differences unknown to nearly everyone but the engineer who wrote the calibration. I am very interested. Where did you obtain this information from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Christensen Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Thank you all for the reply. I am by no means a 6.0 expert but have started to see a few of them this past year. We are a big school district with a large fleet of busses that have the 466 DT Internationals in them and started seeing cavitation on the sleeves even with additive. Somehow these busses found their way to our shop. At the same time, several years ago we took some students to the University of Nebraska Tractor Testing Lab where they were working on experiments creating cavitation. They concluded that cavitation is amplified by various factors. The first and formost was the ability of the water to form a vapor or bubles due to bends, temp differences or oscillations/vibrations. These bubles would lack surface tension to water and would adhere to sleeves in cylinders and then the force of the piston would cause a resonance on the sleeve which would transfer to the bubble and would rapidly collapse thus imploding on the cylinder. Another factor would be rapid change in pressure such as the EGR of the 6.0. It looks as though the EGR design could create a rapid change in presure creating these voids or bubles and the resonation of the valves will cause imploding. To help alleviate the formation of the so called bubbles, an additive of nitrite, borate and ? helped dissipate the bubbles and put the proper pH back to the antifreeze by adding an additive. I do agree changing antifreeze is crucial but it only prevents so much cavitation. I do believe water in a high compression engine with diesel fuel will produce a pronounced effect under compression and power stroke of the piston due to the vapor abilities of water. After looking at the heads of a 6.0 and the bolts I see a couple of issues. it does not look as though there are enough head bolts for the surface area of the head and in addition the possibly there is not enough torque or gripping power of the bolts (hence upgrading to a stronger head bolt for the 6.0). Could a small amount of water in the cylinder create enough of a vapor pressure effect to possibly stretch a bolt that was not really designed for that engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I was first told that bit of information by a diesel tech in another dealer, I actually never realized I was looking at different engine stickers all these years. In all the trucks I've run across it's held true to this day. I am not 100% positive on what requirements exactly will illumintate the check engine light but I was told in school that it's when a fault causes emissions to exceed 1.5 times the amount regulated by federal law. Now if a truck has non-california emissions it's obvious that the remaining 49 states have agreed on an emissions amount allowed, perhaps no EGR flow still allows these trucks to meet the emissions standard. We all know this one engine is used in several different frames.... pickup, cab and chassis, and econoline. All of which have different emissions standards. I believe the only blue engine sticker I've seen after 06 was in a F-550. Pickups are all red stickers after 2006. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I am not 100% positive on what requirements exactly will illuminate the check engine light but I was told in school that it's when a fault causes emissions to exceed 1.5 times the amount regulated by federal law. This is correct for OBD2 vehicles, 1.5 times FTP (Federal Test Procedure) amounts. That's why the wrench light came in, to inform the driver of other issues not related to emissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spdracer Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I have used tear tags from 49 state trucks when the customer wants the EGR removed on a California Emissions Truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
66glide Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 This thread got me thinking...I bought my '06 equipped with an EGR delete. In the summer. it would always turn on the CEL with an associated EGR flow code. I am going to install a bulletproof EGR cooler at some point, and have no interest in changing to aftermarket "tuning". The odd thing is, the EGR codes will NEVER set in the winter! I've been driving it since the cold weather set in with no code set. I'd love to hear opinions on what the software strategy is on EGR monitoring in cold temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It's probably got something to do with monitor enable criteria, gas engines don't run a full set of monitors frequently in the winter due to this. I looked up your enable criteria and it looks pretty simple, I'm thinking Ford tweaked it in a later flash and didn't update the OBD2 System Operation Summary. Also, EGR is to prevent excessive combustion temps/pressures that break down nitrogen into oxides of nitrogen. These will be lower in winter due to ambient temp, it's possible the strategy has less EGR command with a low IAT and doesn't meet enable criteria. From the original doc: Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Monitor Operation: DTCs P0401 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow Insufficient Detected P0402 – Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow Excessive Detected Monitor execution Continuous (8ms) Monitor Sequence None Sensors OK: Intake Air temperature Sensor 2 (IAT2). Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF) Barometric Pressure Sensor (BARO) Intake Air Temperature Sensor (IAT) Engine Oil Temperature Sensor (EOT) Manifold Air Pressure Sensor (MAP) Exhaust Pressure Sensor (EP) Exhaust Gas Recirculation Position Sensor (EGRP) Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve Actuator Monitor (EGRAM) Electronic Variable Response Turbocharger Actuator (EVRT) Monitoring Duration 15 seconds cumulative – conditions 1 and 2 30 seconds cumulative – condition 3 Typical Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Monitor Entry Conditions: Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valve close position has been learned and one of the following conditions exist. Condition 1: Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) flow commanded greater than 20%, engine speed (N) 1000- 2250 RPM and fueling desired (MFDES) 12-29 mg/stroke Condition 2: Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) flow commanded greater than 20%, engine speed (N) 2250- 3150 RPM and fueling desired (MFDES) 10-29 mg/stroke. Condition 3: No Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) flow commanded, EGRP voltage < 1.2V, 0 deg C < EOT and ECT < 60 deg C, 0 deg C < MAT < 30 deg C, engine speed (N) 600-750 RPM and fueling desired (MFDES) 4-20 mg/stroke. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 66 glide my 2006 does the same thing with the factory calibration. Cold ambient temp = no P0401. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Are you guys rocking a blue engine label on the rocker cover or an orange one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Rocking the red sticker here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I can't speak for the 6L's but the 6.7's completely shutdown EGR once the temp gets much below freezing so if you are seeing temps at that threshold or lower, EGR won't flow so it won't run the tests. I suspect the same is true for the 6L's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 yes the newer strategies do shut down EGR when ambient temps are cold. I don't know any specifics but I bet is was around the time 09-24-3 came out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
66glide Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Are you guys rocking a blue engine label on the rocker cover or an orange one? Orange/red sticker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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