I missed something somewhere

Matt Saunoras · February 25, 2014

I definitely jumped the gun on this one. Problems starring me right in the face and I just over looked them. Not purposely but because I wasn't sure at what I was looking at aside from the obvious.

I'm working on a 06 F-450 6.0 ZF6 that's spent a month outside our shop. The reason it's on the back burner is because it's not our baby. We didn't sell it, we didn't drop the 6007 in it, frankly we've never worked on it. I will work on anything that doesn't have spark plugs so naturally I grab it up.

This truck almost 2 years to the day had a complete dropped in. In those 2 years it's had 2 sets of coolers and 3 front main seals. The tech notes for the most recent front main seal state that the seal keeps pushing out. One time it pushed out in less than a 100 miles. Red flag #1 that something weird is going on.

On to my diag and what I overlooked. This truck just plain runs poor, no codes, makes good boost, isn't tooooo heavy to just runs like a dog. It idles rough when you first cold start it. Not like a injector misfire but weird, honestly like a balance shake (I have never felt any 6.0/6.4 idle like this). Power balance does not indicate a single cylinder is the source of the rough running. The line is smooth, not choppy but it doesn't idle flat. Several cylinders will be up and several down. Turning the compensator on and off did absolutely nothing (struck me as odd also) I wish I had a screen shot but it's too late now. #6 and #7 seem to be the lowest contributing at idle and when driving down the road they are dropped hard but not like a bucking misfire drop. I can't feel anything when driving it, just power balance looking goofy. I look the other way because it's a M/T. Thinking maybe that has something to do with it but now that I look back it just doesn't make sense.

What I didn't realize until tonight is that #6 and #7 are pair cylinders on TDC at the same time, this makes me think that something is amiss with CKP/CMP sync.....but on to what I did find.

The right headgasket is definitely blown. #3, #5, and #7 cylinders have all breached into a water jacket. The EGR cooler is fine but I am going to put an oil cooler(3rd one) in this thing for sure, EOT is a little too hot(could be from air but I can't chance it). The oil filter housing is cracked big time and has the whole underside of the engine soaked. I was hesitant to drive far but I had to verify the headgaskets were blown without a doubt. So for the hell of it tonight I took a peak at my front main seal. It is in fact pushed out about 3/32". This would be the 4th front main this truck has needed. Crankcase pressure was good, 4" of H2O at 3000 RPM.

Red Flag #2. Every single damn piston has contacted at least 2 valves. On the right side it appears to be mostly intake valves, on the left side, mostly exhaust valves. This stopped me dead in my tracks when I saw this and I started thinking about every thing I over looked to this point. I have no idea what the driver did to this engine but it's not good. All my piston protrusions look fine, all my valves looks recessed about the same but I haven't slid a feeler gauge under them yet, I imagine they are in spec.

Now I am sitting here wondering what besides an over-rev would cause valves to contact the pistons. I'm drawing a blank. Also wondering what am I going to do to fix this truck. Mind you these headgaskets were SPW until this point. If I ask Hotline for any kind of advice they're going to slap me across the head with a warranty cancellation.

I don't know if anything I just typed made any sense. My brain is cooked and I need to bounce some ideas around.

Aaron · February 25, 2014

Someone tried to grab 4th on a downshift and grabbed 2nd instead...

Matt Saunoras · February 25, 2014

What should I expect to happen if I don't do anything about the pistons?

Aaron · February 25, 2014

Are you changing the heads? I betcha you got some bent valves.

I would at the very least measure protrusion. I would tell hotline though let them or prior approval decide, or document it well.

You don't wanna marry this shitbox.

Jim Warman · February 25, 2014

The front crank seal is sealing the oil pump..... I don't see crankcase pressure as being a serious contender for seal displacement. Perhaps a relief valve concern? Can't recall if there is a drain back port in the front of the oil pump housing. With the front of the motor being apart that often I'd want to check balancer runout and then crank snout runout if the balancer showed a problem.

Runs poor? Maybe some lifters pumping up? Not sure if that could happen on one of these.

Pistons are in the right way 'round? Just fishin' here - but I ain't old enough to have seen EVERYTHING.

Good luck with this puppy.

Matt Saunoras · February 25, 2014

Interesting ideas Jim. I hadn't thought about lifters pumping up. Possibly related to the front seal pushing out?

I've got some more brain storming to do but I'm very happy with the extra ideas so far. I will look into all of this tomorrow and maybe bounce some ideas off hotline too.

The balancer looks new for some reason but I did not notice it being replaced in the spw history of this engine. The vibration it was producing did feel similar to a 4.0 SOHC with a balancer failure.

Aaron · February 25, 2014

Wait wait wait wait.

I'm not sure why I didn't think of this before.

It's a stick shift truck?

Check the crankshaft endplay.

Matt Saunoras · February 25, 2014

That is on the list of things to check. Right now i am looking at some questionable piston protrusion. Where is it checked at? 6 and 12? Already at 12 o'clock it is much more than the core 6.4 I have sitting here.

Matt Saunoras · February 25, 2014

Looking at .005" crankshaft endplay. Well within spec. Had it moving good with a rolling head prybar in the starter hole and a regular one on a balancer bolt.

Matt Saunoras · February 25, 2014

Looking at piston protrusion of .037" when spec is .0354". Also I didn't notice it before but almost all the pushrods in this engine are slightly tweaked. I couldn't see it until I rolled them across a flat surface. Something happened and I bet Ford tells me it's an over rev.

Aaron · February 25, 2014

*shifter noises*

"Yep, this is definitely fourth gear"

*clutch out*

"Uh....ohhhh....."

Brad Clayton · February 25, 2014

Matt Saunoras · February 26, 2014

They want tear down inspection and a cost cap. Not even a hint of who or why. My SM wants to talk to our service rep first. Since I backed the truck into my 18k I had to clear my boxes off the wall to get the truck back far enough to lift. It's up though and the ZF is ready to yank.

Aaron · February 26, 2014

The title of this thread?

The driver missed something, too! The right gear!!

:haha2:

Matt Saunoras · February 26, 2014

Man this thing totally had my head screwed up yesterday. As obvious at it is now I just couldn't put the pieces together.

Matt Saunoras · March 8, 2014

Alright, finally got a chance to rip this thing apart. It's been here a long time, I know, but being that it's SPW the customer understands the process involved in getting another engine for it.I can only assume this engine was put together incorrectly. The customer insists that it was never over revved. Worked hard, yes, but not over revved, there's no way to prove it one way or another. The right head that was paired with the bad gasket is junk. As dumb as it sounds the deck has scratch marks in it. There is zero chance I dragged this head across anything. I am very careful with everything upon disassembly and I did use an engine hoist to remove the head. I even showed my SM some scratch marks that are underneath hard carbon proving they've been there since assembly. One mark I have is a direct leak path from the combustion chamber into a water jacket. No brainer, it's getting a right head.I completely disassembled the left head, it is fine, no bent valves, weird valve wear patterns or seat problems. 2 exhaust valves have some strange pit marks in the stem so I'm going to change them.On to the shortblock disassembly. First thing I noticed was my oil pump gears have some unusual wear marks, a couple of the teeth have some odd pit marks in them too. The faces of the gears are scored a little more than normal also. This prompted me to remove the regulator. I found the cap was finger loose and the regulator itself looks like someone ran 80 grit sandpaper over it. Definite score marks and most likely sticking. Pull all the rod/pistons out and the top of every rod bearing has copper showing through. Some worn heavier than others. This tells me without a doubt the excessive piston protrusion is putting stress on the rod bearings during compression.The next thing I found sealed the deal on this engine and showed me exactly why this thing just didn't run right (aside from the bent pushrods). Power balance was goofy and the engine had a weird vibration. The crank trigger wheel came loose and the dowel hole is completely elongated. The trigger wheel actually has scrape marks on it from hitting the inside of the block.I re-measured crankshaft endplay and still got .005". The thrust washer has some wear and some copper showing through on both sides but the wear is not excessive and no scoring present. All the mains looked fine in this thing, one had a small score but I didn't even check the crank to see if it had a matching mark.So a shortblock and one head should do it. Cust needs to buy a main harness, I am not putting the old one back it.

Aaron · March 9, 2014

Them rod bearings are something special.

Matt Saunoras · March 9, 2014

I am grateful for all the help I get on here and all of the input you guys provide. I would have surely owned this truck if I just slapped new gaskets in it. At least I'm getting a nice souvenir from it all (crank trigger wheel )