Bio fuels in a 6.0...

[sparker]

Recently had a customer in here asking a lot of questions on using Bio. From what I've been told officially, we are to recommend nothing more than B5 but only Bio found around here is B20.

 

Anyone here have any long term experience running Bio fuels in the 6.0, up to a 20% (B20) mixture? I wouldn't see it hurting anything in the motor at that low of a percentage.

[Keith Browning]

sparker,

 

I think we all need to start learning about this alternative fuel because it will only become more popular with time. I don't hear much feedback from the manufacturers and their research which is a shame. What I have heard from Ford is the claim that high concentrations of bio-diesel has caused injector concerns related to stiction. Aside from that there is an earlier SSM or TSB warning of bio-diesel de-laminating the inside of fuel tanks causing fuel filters to plug up. There is mention of that in a few posts. Personally I like the idea but we need to learn a lot more about it.

[sparker]

thanks FD, now that you mention it, I remember now reading about the de-lamination potentials, but I had forgotten that.

 

It is most definitely a shame that the manufacturers, government and more influential parties involved don't push for more R&D. From the little bit that I've heard, the injector concerns can be eliminated with a good fuel additive, but then that eats into any potential cost savings or benfits.

[Jim Warman]

sparker, the biggest benefit of bio-diesel would be to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels... I sincerely don't think that cost really enters into that idea.

 

I'd like to see some manufacturer, somewhere actually look into the viability of designing an engine specifically for bio-fuels...

 

But, we all know, some dork on TDS will ask about burning jet fuel in one....

[LR Mike]

The bio fuels are a very good cleaner, so a fuel filter change or 2 when their use is started is to be expected.

Here's one of the biggest things I still can't figure - bio fuels actually have a higher lubricity than dino fuels, yet they are cited by Ford as causing injector failures due to scoring? Is it maybe that water is carried by the bio? I know the ethanol mixtures in gasoline will carry instead of seperating water.

I also had a Ford hotline engineer last year tell me that the high injection pressures of the PSD will cause bio fuels to 'polymerize' - still haven't really figured that one out yet.

[Keith Browning]

Now we're diggin in.

 

• polymerize - to join together many small molecules called monomers to form giant molecules, called macromolecules, or polymers

This is basically emulsifying. Like making mayonnaise! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Google polymerize and start reading. I found that water and pressure do come into play concerning fuel.

[sparker]

I do know that here locally where I'm at in Texas, if you have a pretty large tank (500+ gallons), you can have a B20 mixture delivered to your tank for $1.85 a gallon. That's most definitely a cost savings and I could see where owners, especially in a rural area like this where those tanks are everywhere, would consider and want to use them; 1) for the cost savings and 2) for the foreign affairs. I myself have 2 1000 gallon diesel tank and a 500 gallon gas tank on my place. I've even considered trying it for a month to see what happens.

[LR Mike]

So does that mean that:

 

A) BD will in fact absorb or carry water like it's ethanol relative,

 

that this will in turn cause the PSD injectors to become 'mayonaise makers'

 

C) The cost incenetive of filling a large (500 + gallon) tank will become a problem as water collects in said tank

 

D) We are all about to get it royaly! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Hey Guys, I was just on BD-Power.com and came across this. Might be worth checking out.

 

 

 

Here is a post from the TDR web site written by Doug Memeing, an engineer at Cummins

 

 

From: Doug Memering

Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm

Subject: [biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD

 

Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer at Cummins Inc, and work in Fuel System Development.

 

Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% Biodiesel. There are several concerns the company has with higher ratio blends. There are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are mostly commercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them any of which an individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what they put into their tank.

 

First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some caveats. While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are considerably improved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will increase and the higher the biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the increase will not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal limit, but B20 and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the box". Since the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the emissions of the engines, instead of the users, the company must maintain a strict policy against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the regulations.

 

Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, therefore the higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the engine. Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially overpowered so the driver may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will become more noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you would likely not be bothered unless you are street racing or pulling a large (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a company Cummins is in the position that if they sell a 305 Hp engine and the customers tend to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put in the tank.

 

The third and more serious concern for us homegrown biodieselers, in my opinion, is water. Most tanks collect water, many vehicles are equipped with water separation filters to protect the fuel system components. The problem is the biodiesel has a higher affinity for water than petrol diesel, so the biodiesel is going to carry the water out of the tank. Furthermore, the water separators that are normally used will NOT extract the water from biodiesel so the water gets carried into the fuel system. Most modern fuel systems are very sensitive to water. The engine will run initially but the internal fuel system components will quickly corrode which will lead to a fuel system failure, and usually an expensive one.

 

The company is also concerned about the quality of the biodiesel coming on the market. They have a wide variety from some very high quality to some very poor quality and currently there are no recognized quality standard that the commercial producers are going by.

 

There are other concerns with blending biodiesel with the coming Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). It has a few challenges to overcome but I will not go into the details here.

 

With all that said, my personal observation (not the view of Cummins) is that if you pay attention to what you are putting in your tank qaulity wise. You make sure that it is dry. Then you should not have any problems with the fuel system of the age mentioned. The timing does not need to be changed in order for the engine run, however you will be producing more NOx than you were with petrodiesel. You will likely see degradation of non metal lines in the fuel system and you will have to replace all of them at some point. Return lines are probably the first ones you will notice. I believe most vehicles run steel lines for the supply lines from the tank to the engine.

 

I am brewing my own biodiesel and running it in my 94 Cummins 5.9L dieseland I intend to eventually run on straight biodiesel. I know the risks and will watch things carefully.

 

 

I've been running B5 since April. No noticeable differences. Last week when I had the tank filled (550gal), I had it filled with B40. Definently tons less smoke. Truck doesn't run any better/worse. Mileage unchanged.

 

As of a few days ago B100 was $1.985/gal + taxes bringing it to $2.429 which is what I paid. Straight #2 was $2.529 incl. tax.

 

I most likely will go back to B5 or B2 next time 'cause it ain' so good in cold weather to be running Biodiesel. Gels way to easily. I might go with a B20 or so to get me thru Oct, we'll see.

 

Running B2 eliminates the "need" for using lubricity additives.

[sparker]

good info larry, thanks for bringing that to our attention.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

I can't find the other info I had from a few years back, but when I worked for Cummins Michigan we outfitted all of the UofM transit buses with M-11 Cummins engines that run strictly on Bio-diesel in addition to the catalytic exhaust systems. I swear there was so little fumes that ( exaggerating )you could breath in the exhaust. I believe it was B5 but I suffer from C.R.S. To many diesel's throughout the years.