Texaco LLC coolant

[Kyle E. Grathwol]

Does anyone have experience/opinion on using the red Texaco long life coolant in the 6.0?

 

I have used it in the 7.3 for years without any problems, in fact, my water pump failures went down.

 

Thanks for your time.

[Kyle E. Grathwol]

Nevermind. I just saw that Navistar factory fills the 6.0 with LLC.

[Keith Browning]

Kyle, Many of you fleet and municipal guys are more likely to be using different products that are out there on the market. At the dealer level most of us are using OEM products. We use a long life coolant which is gold in color. I would say that as long as the coolant meets the specifications required by the manufacturer and DOES NOT contain any chemicals that could harm the engine.

 

Perhaps you could tell US what you have been using and what, if any, problems there are using the product in question. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif In some aspects we live in a sheltered world! As you know, our diesel customers are like no others. If we were to put red coolant in a truck that specifies gold coolant well that might be well taken!

[Kyle E. Grathwol]

Hi Keith,

 

I would be happy to share my experiences with the red LLC. But first I have to say that I have a whole new level of respect for you Ford dealer techs. I have been a diesel mechanic (mostly heavy) for 24 years and I have never had a more difficult engine to work on than the 6.0 in a F series. My hat is off to you all.

 

I converted my entire fleet (70 units total) of highway milling machines, tractor trailers, straight trucks and pick ups to the Texaco red LLC several years ago. It was definitely a good decision for us. Water pump failures went down and there is much less erosion/corrosion on aluminum components such as thermostat housings. Shell (who is the patent holder) claims that engines will run cooler with it as it provides better heat transfer. I really have no way to confirm this but everything else they claim about this product has been proven to be true. I use the heavy-duty mix which has additives for diesel engines that the Dex-Cool does not. I buy it pre-mixed with de-ionized water. The heavy duty is bright red and the automotive (Dex-Cool) has more of an orange tint to it. When we pull an engine down for overhaul, the coolant passages, liners, anything that contacts coolant looks brand new.

 

As soon as the 7.3's were out of warranty, I converted them to the red LLC and I put it in a 6.0 this week. The coolant performed excellently for years in my 7.3's and I have no doubt the same will be true for the 6.0's.

 

The only negative other than the cost is this coolant seems to leak out of places much easier than conventional coolant. My guess is because of the very low silicate. Silicate drop out has a leak sealing characteristic which is actually a negative. We have alot of cold leaks at hose clamp joints in the winter.

 

Thanks Keith for allowing me to join your on-line community. I learn something everytime I check the forums.

 

Kyle Grathwol

[Keith Browning]

Thanx for the feedback and observations. And as for the inclusion of fleet managers and technicians - total segregation for these forums would be naive as fleets account for a great number of Ford vehicles - many of which are subjected to conditions and usage beyond that which most dealer guys will ever see.

 

I do have a question though.

 

If the Texaco product costs a little more and presents leaks, why would you have chosen it over another coolant such as the Motorcraft Gold coolant?

[Kyle E. Grathwol]

Our fleet is predominantly Caterpillar and they are factory filled with the red coolant. To comply with the extended warranty, it had to stay red. The research that I did at the time indicated red was the best way to go for the entire fleet. If I remember correctly, the Ford Gold isn't a true LLC and it is based on old technology (I know what you are thinking right now and it will take me a while to dig out that documentation). I spoke personally with the engineer and patent holder from Shell (Mr. Rich Armstrong, now retired) who invented the product before I actually made the switch. If you could see the cooling systems on a disassembled engine, especially our Mercedes V8 twin turbo engines, you would be a believer. Radiator tubes plugging due to silicate drop out are no longer an issue either. It is documented that the reason Caterpillar made it factory fill is because during the test phase, warranty water pump failures dropped off.

 

The cold leak issues aren't a significant problem. It is actually an indicator that silicate rocks aren't circulating and pounding the water pump seal.

 

HOWEVER, I do know that Cummins had serious issues with the red. Compatibility issues with o-rings in their engines caused major leaks. I think this has been resolved. I have several C series Cummins and had no problems. I think it was the bigger engines that had problems.

 

I will price the Ford Gold against what I am currently paying for the red and let you know what the difference is.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

We keep the Fleetgard,Cat.,Detroit,and the Motorcraft coolant in stock for warranty only. The customer pay jobs we have been switching them over to the Shell Rotella ELC, per the Shell rep that we have, we no longer need to check the DCA readings. Shell says that the additives that is in the ELC does not degrade and will not need the DCA additives added. They also state that the coolant is good for 300,000 miles or 600,000 miles with the ELC extender added. Pricing is pretty comparable to the Motorcraft. To me it's a no-brainer that the customer won't have to check the coolant like they used to it's a pretty good deal for the customers.

 

As for the waterpump or coolant system failures I haven't seen a big difference yet. We've only been switched over for about a year and a half.

[dieseldoc]

Well it is good to see somebody is having good luck with it. I am cat tech and I hate the ELC coolant. I see a lot of cold water leaks like you have already mentioned. Also most of the engines that we have apart that are using the ELC have a lot of cavitation erosion on the liners. I mean even at 400,000-500,000 they are pitted so bad that we have to replace some of them. We use to never see that before ELC came on the market as long as you kept up on the SCA. Being a CAT tech we are big into sampling. I am driving an 06' F-250 with a 6.0. I took a coolant sample at my last oil change(that was at 5,000 mi.) and the sample came back bad. It reccomended flush and refill. I am a beliver in the standard cat coolant. The guys I have gotten to convert over have never been happier. I run it in everything I own. I want to flush and fill my new one with it, but I am scared that it will void my warranty. Sorry for the long post. I do have a question though. When I first got the truck there was a lot of sand in the degas bottle, and it was causing my regulator to stick open. Of course when I took it in it would not act up. I finally put a water filter on and that has helped. I am wondering if this is the norm, or did I get one that did not get cleaned out well enough?

[WGLR13MWZ]

I have sold most all coolants for years. The biggest problem I see is people think one red coolant in brand x is the same as aonther red coolant. It is extremley rare this is the case. There are ELC coolants in blue, yellow, clear, purple, and etc. The only thing in commom with each of them is the fact they are based off of ELC technology.

 

The other big problem I see is contaminated cooling systems. As long as the cooling system is sealed almost no problems will arise. When coolant does need to be added people just look for any ELC to add to the system. Always keep the same brand and kind in the system.

 

Dieseldoc mentioned that he sees alot of liner pitting in the Cat motors at 400k - 500k. Is this with the Cat branded coolant? Not all ELC's are for heavy duty diesels. In fact if you are purchasing it at any place other than a true truck shop (fliner, international, etc.) then you need to be checking on the product to make sure it is compatible for your application. There are ELC's for light duty automotive applications and then there are ELC's for heavy duty applications. There is a big difference. On top of that each and every brand has a mileage / hour limit to it. Also heavy duty ELC's truly never need to be replaced as long as the system has been sealed and or never been compromised with alternative coolant. All that needs to be done is to add "Extender." The extender is basically the chemical compunds that have become depleted over time.

 

I am no expert in coolant, but i do have quite a bit of experience and classroom time from manufacturers. It seems that coolant is one of the most misunderstood products we deal with.

[dieseldoc]

Well wglr13mwz, in response to your question about whether it is cat coolant or not. Most truck oems do not use our coolant. In fact most of them use shell or some other brand at the factory. I think the problem is that most people think that elc requires no maintenance. This is not the case. In reality you should be taking somewhat regular coolant samples. I think the biggest enemy to elc is untrained people. For example a lot of truckers, and even pick-up owners go to the petro(for trucks) or Jiffy lube to get thier oil changes. For the most part these people are forced to try and sell parts and services that are unnecessary. They also see the radiator tank a little low and just add water or don't read the labels or know what they are working with and add regular coolant. In a perfect world where the system would be sealed and only a hand full of trained people would come in contact with the system throug out its life than yes elc is a wonderful product. But in the real world with untrained people or people that just dont care and have the "its not my rig" mentality standard(regular) coolant is much more forgiving. Just an opinion, dont mean to rant.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

I totally agree with you about the testing and being trained. That's exactly the same questions I gave to the Shell rep. His response was that they haven't had any problems with this. I still believe that coolant should be tested regularly. We do check it regardless of what Shell say's, If the coolant is failing within the mileage that is recommended then I would hope that the supplier whether it be Shell,Dexcool or other would be paying for the repair.

[Scott B]

I have sold most all coolants for years. The biggest problem I see is people think one red coolant in brand x is the same as aonther red coolant. It is extremley rare this is the case. There are ELC coolants in blue, yellow, clear, purple, and etc. The only thing in commom with each of them is the fact they are based off of ELC technology.

 

The other big problem I see is contaminated cooling systems. As long as the cooling system is sealed almost no problems will arise. When coolant does need to be added people just look for any ELC to add to the system. Always keep the same brand and kind in the system.

 

Dieseldoc mentioned that he sees alot of liner pitting in the Cat motors at 400k - 500k. Is this with the Cat branded coolant? Not all ELC's are for heavy duty diesels. In fact if you are purchasing it at any place other than a true truck shop (fliner, international, etc.) then you need to be checking on the product to make sure it is compatible for your application. There are ELC's for light duty automotive applications and then there are ELC's for heavy duty applications. There is a big difference. On top of that each and every brand has a mileage / hour limit to it. Also heavy duty ELC's truly never need to be replaced as long as the system has been sealed and or never been compromised with alternative coolant. All that needs to be done is to add "Extender." The extender is basically the chemical compunds that have become depleted over time.

 

I am no expert in coolant, but i do have quite a bit of experience and classroom time from manufacturers. It seems that coolant is one of the most misunderstood products we deal with.

Not to be smart.But We just had a Class at work that Peterbilt set up for us.It was hosted by Pen-ray they are One of the top manufacturers of Diesel coolant additives and are OEM consultants to class 8 engine manufacturers coolant system needs.As far as True ELC coolant it is RED and RED only.There are alot of conventional coolants that are Blue,Purple,yellow,orange,Red and a Few other colors.The only positive way to truely tell if it is indeed The RED elc and Not a RED conventional coolant with a SCA additive package is to use a Test strip On it.You will Not be able to get any Nitrate readings off of it period because it uses a Organic Acid compound in it.The spokesman for the class told us really there is No way to test ELC coolant for Nitrates because of its composition They are Not used in it.It has a Organic acid in it and doesnt contain Nitrates like the SCA additives you would add to conventional coolants to be able to use them in a Diesel.Never put any additives in the RED elc.It will deplete Its additive package and you will not have any Cavitation protection,Only the ELC extender is acceptable and that is Not necessary for 5yrs 300,000 miles.The chemicals in the SCA additives will work against the Organic Acid in the ELC and Trash it.Hopefully I did not make this too confusing,It took ahwhile to even comprehend alot of this in the class because you could very easily think you have The RED elc just by looking at it.This is Definately NOT the case. Basically If it is true RED elc The only way you will be able to tell is with the test strip.It will Not register any Nitrate level on that portion of the strip.If you do get a Nitrate level reading it is NOT elc.It is a Conventional coolant that has a SCA nitrate additive package in it.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Okay guy's don't mean to bring up a dead dog, but I'm good for that.

 

Here's my question... Ford has had alot of problems with oil coolers/seals and the like, I don't think I have to go deeper. But do you think that maybe the coolant may be our problem, kind of like Cummins big bore engines did when Texaco came out with the ELC, and like "dieseldoc" had with cold leaks??? Could it possibly be that the end users of the vehicles are mixing the std light duty with the hvy duty coolant required in a diesel and having degradation problems with seals???

[HeuiTim]

I see us CAT guys agree, I would not recommend ELC to anyone. I think the oems push it as a sales tool. and a parts sales tool because it destroys everything. I will always switch someone over if they ask. DEAC the purple stuff (old Green that dogs dont like) is the best stuff. If you read what ELC requires for maint, deac lasts just as long. If you sample and keep a filter on it, it usually outlasts the engine anyway. I have seen weird spacer plate weeping, cavitaion, erosion, eaten seals. I learned from one of our field guys to run Cats Natrual gas coolant which is premixed deac with dionized water. The 3412's with elc are constantly eating injector cups and seals. Something going on with the jacket water heaters and elc. It makes a battery or something. Deac eliminates the problem. The long life coolant does not mean long life engines. C13 and C15 precoolers in Internationals factory fill make red candle wax, plugs aftercooler makes big mess. For a long time cat wanted coolant samples on new c15 engines with water pump failures, they were running elc, that should tell you they know something is going on.

[Jim Warman]

Nevermind. I just saw that Navistar factory fills the 6.0 with LLC.

Weighing in here, real late. And I'll admit that I have only glanced at the replies. I'm going to hope that I'm not repeating something already stated.

 

It appears that there are several "flavours" of the vehicle report card. We use form QC550. This is similar to all the other ones I've had the opportunity to see with various maintenance OPs depending on the "level" of the service but still with the familiar "red/yellow/green" priorities.

 

Our report cards offer that the first service interval for premium gold coolant is something like 160,000 kms ( interestingly, this is the same as the warranty offered on the PSD). After that, the service interval is the same as that for "green" coolant...

 

Food for thought.

[DwayneGorniak]

 

Here's my question... Ford has had alot of problems with oil coolers/seals and the like, I don't think I have to go deeper. But do you think that maybe the coolant may be our problem, kind of like Cummins big bore engines did when Texaco came out with the ELC, and like "dieseldoc" had with cold leaks??? Could it possibly be that the end users of the vehicles are mixing the std light duty with the hvy duty coolant required in a diesel and having degradation problems with seals???

Larry, I think the biggest problem Ford has, is the fact that they have strained the nuts out of the Sick-O by cranking it up 90hp more than it was originally intended to produce. That and the rubber Mexican head bolts that we have in that engine and the fact that when they stretch and lift the heads off the block these engines fill the cooling system with carbon which plugs the engine oil cooler passages and most likely does not do any good for water pump bearings or even the thermostats.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with premium gold at all. How many late model 7.3L's that came from the factory equipped with premium gold have we ever seen issues with? When I bought my 7.3L, that was one of the first things I did was to flush it over to premium gold.

[Tony302600]

so Jim, what is your choice of coolant?

[Keith Browning]

50/50 mix of rye and Coke. Refreshing over ice on a hot day and good to 40 below before his blood starts to thicken and freeze.

[DwayneGorniak]

50/50 mix of rye and Coke. Refreshing over ice on a hot day and good to 40 below before his blood starts to thicken and freeze.

Straight up on the rocks may also be more to Jim's standards. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif I myself like Irish cream fresh out of the freazer especially in the winter. MMMMMMMMMMM Mothers Milk. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif Warms the blood quite nicely.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

No, I think that Jim's choice may be Crown Royal straight up in a hi-ball. That's what I enjoy in the evening out on the deck watchin the sunset.