Scan Tools & Data

[Keith Browning]

Part 1

 

I got involved in a forum discussion that side tracked over the reported codes for a 6.0L - Some of the codes did not appear in any of the 6.0L sections of the PCED. The gentleman was using a Scan Gauge II which also would not allow access to certain PID data like EGR valve position for example.

 

So this led me to thinking as I know that engineering has access to the back-end of control modules so to speak. They get to see all of the data and PIDS that are really there and it is my understanding that what "we" are presented through our IDS software is just that - presented data that we are granted access to. Someone please correct me if this is incorrect and elaborate if possible.

 

This led me to conclude that third party devices like Scan Gauge and other types of non-OEM scan tools might have even less access to data and even DTC's receiving only generic information. Over the years I have read many posts where there seemed to be erroneous codes and skewed data. Thinking that some of this was due to typos and human error in recording this information but there does seem to be some continuity to this. I have never used any other diagnostic equipment other than Ford's.

 

Looking for insight and experience on this. I am sure I am not the only one who has been seeing this or thinks this. I would like to finally come to an accurate conclusion. 

 

 

 

Part 2

 

Much of what was discussed was based on these erroneous codes that someone was able to find definitions for in an "updated DTC document Ford released back in 2007 which is interesting. You can download it ----> Download DTCs-2007.pdf 32MB and save it for your own reference. The code in question was a P0202 for the 2006 F-series PCED (Powertrain Control Emissions Diagnosis) manual there is no DTC P0202. We do not have any valid injector related codes defined as "circuit open" rather our diagnostics break it down into "circuit low" for short to ground, "circuit high" for circuit open and "contribution" and the codes are in series from P0260 to P0280. P0201 through P0209 do no exist anywhere in the manuals provided for us.

 

If I jump ahead to the same manual for a 2010 E-series 6.0L the same scenario exists in that the supposed "updated codes" are not listed.

 

Interesting eh?

[forddieseldoctor]

I have an Auto Enginuity scanner I use at home. Only used it a handful of times and I'm kinda new to it yet. But there are a few pids that I've noticed aren't there and a few extras that I've never seen on IDS. I was using it on an 03 6.0 with a lack of power concern and it didn't have the pid for ebp inferred. I did not try to use the pids I have never seen before cause they weren't labeled as anything that I found relevant to what I was doing.

 

I have used an OTC scanner at an independent shop and when I was in tech school they had a Snap-on scanner. I don't remember much about either one on the Ford's that I used them on.

[Cetane]

Keith,

 

  As for part 1, you are correct in that someone decides what information you will be able to monitor and programs that into the IDS. I can't speak for the 6.0L but on the 6.7, there are tens of thousands of parameters in the ECU that I can see without calibration access.

 

 Since tools like Scangauge and the Torque app are designed to work with every vehicle, they use SAE J1979(Generic OBD).  This is a protocol that has to be supported at some level on all vehicles currently sold in the US.  There is documentation all over the internet on this spec. It is pretty basic information and probably wouldn't be a whole lot of help in diagnosing a real concern. Aftermarket scan tools also give you J1979 data but in most cases either include or allow you to buy "enhanced" PIDS which should be more or less what you can see with IDS.  I am sure there is someone behind the scenes determining what is "enhanced" and what is off limits as well.  Incidentally, if you had the right information you could access everything IDS can(and more) with something as basic as Scangauge.

 

Part 2 doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  We determine what codes are set by what conditions.  Either the truck had an aftermarket cal that somebody screwed up on or there was an error in the production cal that allowed that DTC to be set.  That DTC is a valid one but not one I see as available for that vehicle.

 

DTC's can be retrieved a couple different ways.  Tools that have to work on all vehicles do it the "generic" way and tools like IDS do it the "enhanced" way.  There should never be an instance where IDS doesn't pull a code that a generic tool does but there are plenty of times a generic tool won't pull everything IDS does.

[Keith Browning]

Part 2 doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  We determine what codes are set by what conditions.  Either the truck had an aftermarket cal that somebody screwed up on or there was an error in the production cal that allowed that DTC to be set.  That DTC is a valid one but not one I see as available for that vehicle.

That is precisely why I am intrigued by this. I have asked if there is any aftermarket stuff involved but as of now I have not gotten a reply.

[Cetane]

Was that code pulled with IDS or something else?  It is also possible that whatever pulled the code incorrectly reported the result. It is certainly possible the production cal has an error but it is more likely something else is going on. Is this vehicle updated to the latest level?

[Cetane]

I did a bit of research today and there are a few instances where dealers ran into that same code.  Hotline always said that code wasn't possible and in every case the truck got an injector(s).  It doesn't really clear up how that code is coming through but I think if it was a production cal problem, they would have said so.

[Matt Saunoras]

I had an 05 6.0L one time that was throwing throttle plate codes.  Yes I pulled them out with IDS too.  No idea what the deal with that was or what ever happened to that truck. 

[cbriggs]

Matt, an 05 with a programmer will throw throttle plate codes. The A/M programs don't usually differ between throttle plate or delete units, but ones without throw circuit codes(non MIL). 

[lmorris]

I have had a few stock 05 6L throw throttle plate codes. A quick PMI fixes the issue. I had a 6.4L with a phantom CEL that would throw out a P0000 error code when running KOEO with IDS. Replaced the EP sensor for another issue and it never returned.