06 e-450 oil leak from the valley

Matt Saunoras · December 17, 2014

Honestly it couldn't hurt

the_twig_187 · December 17, 2014

I think I need to first address the long crank/ hard start issue... Going to remove the covers and hook up test adapters to test the high pressure oil pump and branch tubes

mchan68 · December 18, 2014

For what it's worth, any time you "open up" the high pressure oil system on one of these engines, it takes getting it up to operating temperature and driving it a few miles before the long engine crank diminishes when the high pressure oil system completely primes back up.

the_twig_187 · December 18, 2014

the long crank problem with long ICP build time and cylinder 1&3 misfire were all present when the vehicle came in and are still there now. which is why im concerned about it. I have had the vehicle running for periods of time and as soon as i shut off the engine and attempt to restart the same long crank and extended ICP build time happens. not sure if the ICP and misfires are related but i have to fix one and see if the second follows. seems like the more important one to fix first would be the long ICP build time

Bruce Amacker · December 18, 2014

When diaging a 6.0 ICP problem, look only at ICP voltage and not pressure. Voltage is real, but pressure is calculated, and in some instances the PCM will substitute a known good value in the pressure PID that is not correct. That means I've seen ICPV stay low at .24 while cranking while the ICP pressure PID climbed to 1000PSI or more in scan data which was obviously not real. (That was on a 7.3 ambulance, no DTCs, tech was chasing fuel)

ICPV should be very close to .24 KOEO and climb to 1.2-1.5v within 3 seconds of cranking. If the system is healthy the IPR percentage usually jumps up in the 40's and settles down in the 20's right after starting, leveling off at 23-24% at a hot idle.

Here's a graph of a known good 6.0. Notice the small bump in IPR command while cranking and fast start.

This is a DOT 6.0 E-van with 107,000 miles, no hourmeter, but the techs say it has a boatload of hours on it, probably a low MPH average. The complaint was intermittent hard start/ extended crank time that the tech could not recreate. It was in class recently, we hooked up a FP gauge and graphed these PIDS in IDS. It started quickly each time, but notice the IPR pegging max (85%) to reach desired pressure. This is a sick truck, even though it starts quickly. An air test was done with good results, they ended up finding a weak HPOP and resealed several of the common areas up top while they were in there.

+1 on what Mike said- any HEUI system needs to have the air bled out of it before it will start normally after a repair. This won't happen in the bay, it needs to be driven and be thrashed for 5-10 miles in most cases. I know yours was hard starting when it came in, just reinforcing the importance of bleeding. The right way is to pull the top plugs on the rails and crank it until oil comes out but techs rarely do that.

Don't overlook checking fuel pressure, it's a common reason injectors fail. It has to be checked on the road, 40-50MPH WOT unless you use the trick Ford tool that bleeds it off the head.

Good Luck!

:grin:

the_twig_187 · December 18, 2014

wow! thank you for all that information... that was extreemly helpful...im going to see if parts will loan me a test ICP sensor as with what you just said I believe that it may be contrubuting as my ICPv is 0.25 while cranking for a long time (15sec) before it bumps up to 0.8v and then to 1.3v when running.

I just am not sure if its ok to be running the vehicle for a period of time with only two functioning injectors on the right side. if there was a fuel pressure problem would it not affect all of the injectors on that bank? cylinders 5 and 7 run well and respond accordingly when commanded on and off in the power ballance test

thank you for your help

Bruce Amacker · December 18, 2014

To be honest, yours doesn't sound like a bad ICP sensor, but a regular HP concern which could be anything from leaks to a weak HPOP to a base oil concern. With that number of miles it could be anything. Start with the basics- how old is the oil? Sometimes hard starts are nothing more than needing an oil change. After that, I'd sell them diag time- on yours it would be something like this- (if it was an F-pull the oil filter and make sure it has an OEM filter. Crank the engine and verify the filter housing immediately starts to fill with oil.) On an E, I'd pull the EOT or EOP and verify base oil pressure both cranking and running. It should build 20-30psi on a long crank and

Pressure, low idle (min @ 110 °C (230 °F) oil temp.) 69 kPa (10 psi) Pressure, high idle (WOT) (min @ 110 °C (230 °F) oil temp.) 276 kPa (40 psi) Discharge pressure (2,500 rpm) 483 - 621 kPa (70 - 90 psi)

Then I'd sell an air test at the port on the top of the pump (E-van), with that kind of miles on it you're likely to find anything. Do the air test for more than a few minutes and see what pops up, use full shop air pressure. Some guys find "some" air leaks are normal doing an air test, that's up to interpretation. If it gurgles through the oil filter the HP pump is bad. Another option is to run the engine with the VC off and look for leaks but this is tough on an E-van. By now yours should have the updated one piece STC fitting between the HPOP and the branch tube, but who knows. Pull the IPR and see if there are any chips in the tip or damage to the screen, if so it gets a HPOP, IPR and pull the oil cooler and change the oval screen. If everything checks out sub a test IPR in it (during your air test you should have cycled the IPR with IDS and hear whether it's working or not, but still sub one in) and see if your long crank improves. If you have an old IPR handy you can also put a plug in the tip and sub that in temporarily. If all checks out fine the HPOP is probably weak causing your problem, and it's a high failure rate unit so don't be afraid to sell one. While you're in there inspect/replace the o-rings on the left HP rail (ugh!) and injector inlets. I know it's a bitch but it's got to be done.

I remember CP E-van HP oil diag being 15 hours or something plus time for the repair so make sure you're paid well for it. Alliant Power sells the o-rings separately so you don't have to buy HP manifolds for the swivel o-rings, and they also sell the injector inlet o-rings so you don't have to buy injectors if the inlet D-rings are worn. With that kind of miles it could be all of the above.

If your relative compression and buzz test are OK, it almost sounds like 2 bad new injectors on the right bank. The best place to check FP on a van is the plugs on the back of the heads, you'll need a banjo fitting setup (12x1.5) to clear the ex pipes.

I'm not teaching, you can call if you have any questions.

Good Luck!

:grin:

the_twig_187 · December 18, 2014

you are awesome!

switched the ICP and noting changed

does it sound like i have two separate issues here? could a weak HPOP cause two injectors to not fire? because thats my second concern, its plausable that the HPOP is weak and causing the long crank time, but what is causing injector 1&3 to dead miss before and after i installed new ford reman injectors and it pass' a buzz test?

Bruce Amacker · December 18, 2014

Relative compression OK? Does it crank evenly- the "cranking cadence" as I call it- most times you can hear a dead hole while cranking. You probably have two concerns, unless the swivel fittings ("eyeballs") on the bottom of the HP rail are leaking and starving those two cyls for HP oil, while causing an ICP-slow-to-build complaint. I've never seen this on a 6.0 but it is a pattern failure on a late IH DT that uses the same fuel system.

I've never seen a weak HPOP cause dead cyls.

I assume it's all back together, like it's ready to drive? Air test it, and loosen all of the valve cover bolts you can reach. Stick a screwdriver under the VC lips to lift them up so you can listen for air leaks. An air check is pretty quick on an Evan, use the fitting on top of the HPOP.

If you pull the VC off again, make sure all of the rockers are moving when you crank it and nothing is sloppy when you grab them.

Change your avatar. I don't like people staring at me.

:grin:

the_twig_187 · December 19, 2014

lol well its kind of back together as the doghouse is still off and the loom is up... I feel like if I really worked at a steady pace I could get both valve covers off to connect shop air in about an hour...the only thing is that I already did a HP air test (with the covers on) and no audible air sound was heard at all...either way it seems like I'm going back into the valve covers so ill pull those and start there with an air test to see if I can hear an hp leaks...just thought if a leak was strong enough to stop two injectors that I would have heard something even with the covers on but ill remove the covers and air test and share my results

Bruce Amacker · December 19, 2014

Do you have a tester FICM laying around?

the_twig_187 · December 20, 2014

yes we put a brand new (for test purposes) FICM and ICP sensor and it did not change the symptoms in any way at all. spoke to the customer on Thursday (today is Saturday)...told him to keep the costs down I will be putting in a little time here and there when I have down time over the next couple of weeks in order to try and diag these issues. he is in no rush as the truck as has been sitting at his yard for over 8 months. he said he doesn't want to dump a ton of money into it as this is starting to become a bit of a money pit but he still wants us to see if we can diag the cause of the hard starts and misfires and give him a quote on the repair costs.

Aaron · December 28, 2014

How old is the fuel?

scott1984 · December 30, 2014

Any codes?? I would pull the glow plugs out and check manual compression. I wouldnt worry about long crank so much as the misfire. With 1 and 3 being side by side I would be looking valvetrain( bad valve, bent push rod, bad spring. Ive had new injector bad right out the box also by running buzz test it only checks the electrical side not the mechanical.

the_twig_187 · December 30, 2014

fuel is over 8 months old as he did not put any new fuel in the truck after it sat since feb 2014

I have not been able to get back at the truck since the other truck shop tech went on vacation for 2 weeks and im running off my head with work...customer knows that it will be a while before we can diag it and i will update once I can get back at it and find something

the_twig_187 · January 5, 2015

so I think im on the right track....I found that the main engine wiring harness has a ton of small cuts in various wires. I also found that the injector harness for the right bank cylinder #3 has been cut and a new "pig tail" from I' m guessing an old harness was spliced in. and by spliced in I mean butt connected and then wrapped with electrical tape. I observed the crank and cam signals while cranking also and I found that when wiggling the harness the signals would drop out. I also tried a relative compression test again to see if any results were different after a long soak and I kept receiving a message saying that due to the erratic RPM fluctuation the test could not be performed. I have recommended that we replace the harness before we continue as I believe that it could be contributing to some or all of our problems. customer is thinking about the recommendation and is going to let us know by tomorrow if they want to continue as I told him that there may also be some base engine problems that will still need to be solved even after the harness is replaced.