Jim Warman Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 I had an interesting one last week... 2005 F350 with the 6.8. Symptoms - low idle in gear and stalling any time it felt like it. P061B and P2106. Checked the CKP and the connector looked "damp" (looked shiny and that wiped off with my finger) - blew that out and gave it a dab of caliper pin grease... no more codes but no change in other symptoms. Cut to the chase - discovered that the ETC wasn't doing the "dashpot" thing. Throttle position was an exact trace of APP. Found the MAF had some healthy looking fur growing off it - cleaned the MAF and reflashed for good measure.... Life is good. The interesting part.... Looking at the code description for P061B, the "possible causes" section says "see possible causes for P2106"... Scroll down to P2106 and "possible causes" says " ".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx5chris Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 had the same symptom - i think the oasis term is "losing r.p.m." Had on a few months back chased the codes with no results, contacted hotline and they told me to replace the throttle body. Monitor the 'r.p.m' and 'r.p.m. desired' data hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 When in doubt,its always the electronic throttle body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 The interesting part.... Looking at the code description for P061B, the "possible causes" section says "see possible causes for P2106"... Scroll down to P2106 and "possible causes" says " ".... I recall that bit of insanity. I filed an official complaint with the HotLine engineer who laughed a little when I pointed it out. Even more unfortunate was the fact that the two trucks I had doing this would not stall while in our shop. This first one got a PCM, harness "work" and then finally a new throttle body. I swear sometimes the HotLine guys screw with us! The next one received it's new throttle body right away, rolled out the door and never looked back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 Keith I never noticed your picture moving before, I just noticed it and thought I was having issues. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 OK.... I guess it's time for "wet blanket" mode..... partially because I just went through someone telling me he had to remove the door glass and then the window regulator on a Windstar in order to remove the power window motor... this is after he purportedly "read" the WSM for the labour op "power window motor - R&R".... I didn't ask for advice (though advice is always welcome).... But I did think that someone would go to the DTC charts and descriptions just to see what the possible causes for P2106 are... and then we can all wonder why possible causes for P061B would say "See possible causes for P2106"... Heavy on the <possible causes>.... This conumdrum was the crux of my post.... like my Windstar tech... do we read stuff - or do we just look at the words????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 This conumdrum was the crux of my post.... like my Windstar tech... do we read stuff - or do we just look at the words????? Are you directing this toward the good people at Ford for the DTC blunder or just people in general? Personally, I am having problems lately with techs not using any kind of diagnostic routine and going with "what they know" which apparently is not that much considering the number of comebacks I have had to intercept lately. Reading is fundamental but apparently a lot of people are too smart to read anything. What's the matter Larry? My Avatar freaking you out? It's kinda like the Mona Lisa with the moving eyes trick... and this time the picture IS me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Yeah it's kinda like in the movies, when you walk down a hall and the eyes in a picture follow you. Hey you look older than what you say, could it be the business doing this to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 21, 2007 Author Share Posted July 21, 2007 This one is a scattergun, Kieth.... Everyone should bear in mind that my intention is NOT to anger people.... only to inspire thought where it is needed.... When we see a note that tells us to refer to another section, we usually expect to find some morsel of information rather than the print equivalent of a blank stare. Several issues come to my mind (being the resident a$$hole) starting with the fallability of the manuals and then need for us, as techs, to read what they give us carefully and then apply it in an appropriate manner.... While Ford has done quite well with sections discussing theory and operation of systems and subsystems, their labour guides (vis a vis "workshop manuals") sometimes fall down on the job and many (nearly most) of their diagnostic processes are abysmal.... Testing powers and grounds with a DMM??? This is an exercise in futility and will almost guarranty that a module will get replaced needlessly. I have to thank Tony and Chris for the helpful suggestions but the intent of my original post was to get guys looking at the manual... to see the manual for what it really is.... It is a guide and not a step by step process. FWIW, armed with the introduction section to a DTC and an accurate circuit diagram, I feel there should be little need for most of the PPTs in the PC/ED (at least we'd be rid of a couple of acronyms). One of my first jobs after I returned from holiday was an 06 half ton... with a recurring C1266 (IIRC).... dealing with the power feed to the ABS module.... This has a 3 step PPT.... Check the powers (two of them - with a voltmeter, no less).... check the grounds (Might be two - can't remember - with an ohmeter, no less).... along with the usual reminders to check for pushed out/spread pins..... if those pass, replace the module.... So (being the a$$hole), I load tested the powers with about a 4 amp load..... good to go.... ditto the grounds.... This is too easy.... But let's think sideways for a minute.... the code doesn't return immediately - you have to drive it..... The biggest difference between driving and sitting still is potholes (where I live, anyway). I decided the ground is a good place to start (after a previous debacle involving a HEC)... yep, I'm looking at the right ground and it is clean and tight.... now it is cleaner and tighter.... On to the SJB... Why? The powers load tested good.... The 20 amp PAL fuse had been replaced with an inline, glass fuse holder with connectors cripmed on the ends and plugged in where the PAL fuse would go.... the holder had become untwisted and only the SJB cover saved the connection.... most of the time.... It would be great if Ford could give us more accurate documentation.... but it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. So we are left with reading test steps, deciding what the test step is trying to prove and then applying an appropriate test to that end.... The PC/ED will lead us down the garden path if we allow it.... If we rely on printed matter to lead us around like mindless oafs, we will never be even "good".... if we learn the principles behind the tests.... the circuits.... the devices - all we might ever need is a description of what is supposed to happen and a circuit diagram. This tirade is directed at everyone.... from Ford and their crappy documentation to techs that can't separate "job" and "career".... There are days I hate my job (the only reason I keep coming back is that I want to see what happens next).... but I have never stopped loving my career.... To techs that only do as little as they can get away with.... To techs that refuse to admit that they are in over their heads..... To techs that wont take a step backwards, a deep breath and say "I'm going to learn about this".... The "key"... if you plan on fixing something, be prepared to learn "how it works".... If you are about to replace a part - have a very good "why" on hand... Sorry for rambling... my first week back has been a nightmare of electrical concerns.... with fuel added by those that refuse to learn, those that refuse to read and those that can't think "outside the box". Sorry, Kieth... it looks almost like I had some subconcious ulterior motive.... To my mind, electrical is one of the easiest disciplines we have in our trade.... but only if we apply logic and the knowledge of the important electrical "constants".... How many techs equate an ohmeter reading of "0.0" (no ohms) to a reading of either "OL" or "OUCH" ("no ohms")? Can we train others to think in spatial concepts? I think so... but the desire to learn... to spend the time furthering our careers.... needs to be there.... You mention a burgeoning load of comebacks.... most of these could be avoided if only those techs would learn to think for themselves but do it within the constraints of logic.... if they would only realize that it is the customer paying the bill (no, not Ford.... if we p*ss the customer off bad enough, he'll be doing the same thing at another brands dealer).... if they would only realize that folks will remember your last screwup much longer than they will remember your last victory.... I'm a grade 8 drop out... my only claim to fame is desire.... If I have p*ssed anyone off, I am truly sorry... my intent was to get people thinking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 One of the things I like most about you Jim is that you get right to the point. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Everyone should bear in mind that my intention is NOT to anger people.... only to inspire thought where it is needed.... If I have p*ssed anyone off, I am truly sorry... my intent was to get people thinking.... Who's pissed? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif This is a thinking mans game, it is good to be reminded of that. You just came off of vacation, I am just starting nine days away from work. Only my second week off in two-in-a-half years... largely due to the fact that taking time off from work RAISES my anxiety level for some of the very reasons you just ranted about. The wife has now exceeded that with persistent insistence that I take time off. I have two decent techs that I am sure KNOW how to do most of the things required of them. They know about all of the technical resources available to them, they know about proper test methods yet, for some reason, we have all become stupid and careless lately. Do I really look older than 39? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/surprise.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 21, 2007 Author Share Posted July 21, 2007 Kieth, you've seen a pic of me.... at my age, the only thing that HASN'T fallen is my hair.... You, sir, are the vision of youth personified.... <GACK!!!>.... No, actually, you only look somthingty-something years old... I keep reminding my bot and my wife that they should spend a little more time being happy with what they have than what they don't.... For my part. I'll be "putting out fires" for at least the next week and a half.... and one of my diesel techs starts a weeks vacation Monday.... My youngest Journeyman turned in his notice on Friday (I'll have him until the end of August, at least) for a plethora of reasons.... including a miscommunication that cost him several hours pay and a SM "in training" that is going to come to loggerheads with yours truly in the very near future.... I wonder if the DP will make me apologize to him too after the firework show is over.... Take a look at "Stupid shop tricks" in "On The Job".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Again, Jim I agree with your approach completely. After a certain period of time I realized all the pinpoint tetse were the same...test power, ground, pushed out/bent pins...replace XXX? As you mentioned, if it has a decent explanation of how/what is supposed to happen then all you need is a way to provide power and ground to determine if the XXX werks! I LOVE my PowerProbe II. The problem comes when you are the "go-to-guy" that gets 99% of the bastard jobs and your pay doesn't represent that. I work to eat, not because I WANT to work. Unfortunately, developed a very bad habit of likeing to EAT regularly...remember a situation where I was trying to figure -out why a 2003 Tarus with 108 miles on it, just sold previous morning, was towed in for a no-start/no-crank problem...tuned out to be a pin was crimped on without a wire being stripped. While I was reading and thinking, nearly every day, the guys on the other side of the shop were pumping out services and brake jobs...day after day. Same shit different day...fixing the bastards cars DO make you feel really good but wouldn't pay my insurance bill... A few of you have it REALLY good but it doesn't represent what is happening in the bulk of shops here in the states. Whaaaa! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 ktm, i agree with you fully. I find myself grabbing "bullshit jobs" just because no one wants to do them. Ive had boat loads of messed up concerns, ive had cars in my stall for weeks because I cant figure them out and it turns out being something stupid. I had a UPS van ( brand new motor, trans, exhaust, plugs wires, coil ) everything was brand new, when you go to start it, it would misfire and backfire. I talked to hotline for days and then one guy came up to me and said, try a different design coil. parts said that is the only coil for a 4.2L e series. Turns out, UPS vans got 3.8L windstar coils completely different coil, that fixed it. 3 full days down the drain. checking wires, air gaps, synchros. I'm always the guy everyone comes to when they dont understand recalls, tsb's and ssm's under warranty because i usually always do them first. Do i mind....no..... does it get old...yes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastendpowerstroke Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Quote: I'm a grade 8 drop out... my only claim to fame is desire.... (Using my best slackjawed redneck voice) Damn Jimmy you sure use a lot of them fancy words for a old grease monkey what ain't got no schoolin... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 When I got hired on at my current dealer, I was asked one question - "Can you work on diesels?" Ummm, yeah, I can do that. I cut my teeth on 6.0L. I can handle it. Sure enough, that's what I do here. Diesel. But, not just 6.0L. There is a fair percentage of 7.3L work as well. Ok, I think, it's just another diesel engine. The principles are the same, the application is a little different. Now don't get me wrong. I know my way around a 7.3L. I know the difference between a spill spout and a glow plug. I've done my share of UVC harnesses, cam sensors, high pressure pump fitting o-rings, and water pumps. But, I don't have the same intimate (carefully chosen word) knowledge of 7.3 that I do of 6.0. But I know where to find the information. WSM, PC/ED, OASIS, EVTM, and all the other acronyms that we, as techs, toss about like normal words. And I've got a lifeline - phone number of "the man" in my area. I don't know how to work on these things. I can do it, and I am learning, but I still do not know them. So when a comeback darkens my doorstep, management looks at me and wonders if they made a mistake in taking me on. I know about some sharp learning curves - been through it with the 6.0, and I'm going through it with the 6.4. But the 7.3L has been around for a while. Everyone, it seems, expects me to just "know it." I don't. At least, not yet. I can't just shit the repair out of thin air like I can with the 6.0. And it's frustrating. I see the others. They are taking in the jobs hand over fist. They are making a killing. While I struggle in the back, six manuals open on the radiator support, jabbering to the hotline, "taking too much time" with the IDS. reminds me of this from the charactarization of Antonio Salieri: "I will speak for you, Father. I speak for all mediocrities in the world. I am their champion. I am their patron saint. Mediocraties everywhere, I absove you...all." Anyway, enough whining. I've got a 7.3L with no parking brake, CEL, and a "brake fluid leak under the dash" to work on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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