Keith Browning Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Bruce Amacker was kind enough to share photos of his newly acquired 6.4L engine with me and has also allowed me to put together a presentation and share it. This might scare some of you but we will all have to face this beast eventually. I personally find the under hood view particularly frightening! Enjoy fellas... let us hope this is a good one! Meet the 6.4L Power Stroke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 A couple of comments I'll add to the pictures shown; The secondary (variable) turbo is a Borg Warner design very similar to what's used on the late DT466 (EGR) engine produced by IH. It has a completely different SRA motor than the DT, which is probably a good thing due to the problems IH has had with theirs. BW has had some turbo fin sticking problems, but nothing like the Garrett unit on the 6.0, so I see this as a positive step. IH guys, it has the exact same action and "bounce" on return as the DT BW unit, even though the SRA looks different. The primary turbo is a smaller non-variable unit. This engine will replace the VT-365 in IH MD chassis with a MaxxForce 7 label, powering Class 5 through Class 7 trucks with 200-230 hp at 2,600 RPM and 560-620 ft. lbs of torque @ 1,400 RPM. The EGR coolers appear to be stacked up on the right valve cover in the IH configuration. The HP fuel pump is gear driven from the rear, just like the 6.0's HPOP. There is a pressure sensor on the HP fuel rail under the valve cover for PCM input and a Schrader valve has finally returned, seen on the fuel cooler fitting. The fuel cooler has its own little coolant surge tank with a sight glass and radiator cap, but I don’t know how exactly this interfaces with the main cooling system. I neglected to take pictures of the HFCM when in Vegas at Sema, where the complete truck pictures were shot. Pulling the HP fuel pump was no big deal and I can see this being an hour job with the cab off and the turbos left on. The only thing that scares me is the HP fuel pump is a three plunger radial arrangement with one plunger sticking straight down where water could collect, one pointing at 10 O'clock, and one pointing at 2 O'clock. All three plungers drive off a common crankpin with a weird "bearing block"- Think of a crankshaft with a single crank throw, and a big steel block with three sides pressed onto the crankpin riding on twin tapered roller bearings. Each side of the steel block sides drives one of the three plungers. Stroke is small, less than an inch. The fuel in this engine has a distinctly different odor to it- probably really good stuff If I were to guess, not the junk they sell us at the pumps. I believe the fuel banjo lines on the heads are return lines, so they went back to a return style system. The short block looks like a direct copy of the 6.0 with upper pan, lower pan, bedplate, oil pump, CKP, and CMP all very similar. This engine uses a Piezo injector, which is the first use in the US on a diesel engine. I am working on a cutaway injector completed in a couple of months. The hold downs are almost identical except it’s a T45 instead of a T40. There is a big electrical plug (yellow tape thing) on each valve cover feeding electrical signals to the injectors and FP sender harness. Glow plug feeds go through the valve cover, looking similar to the 6.0 in design. The big oil fill tube thing is just an empty housing intended to separate oil fumes and drain them back to the crankcase. There’s a long curved plastic (fuel line style) drain tube that winds down the right side of the engine and into the bedplate. There’s a pyrometer in the right pipe, and a small converter built into the EGR feed pipe. This should eat up carbon and reduce EGR clogging. Due to the added heat from this unit, the twin EGR coolers, and added HP, I heard the radiator has doubled in BTU rating. There is an EBP sensor in the EGR feed tube. The EGRTPC (throttle plate) has returned in a different form. The lower radiator hose has some kind of trick quick disconnect fitting on it, not a hose clamp. If the housing rots where the o-ring rides, it’s front cover time. I didn’t get the lower hose with the engine so I may have to order one or procure one from Ford. I didn’t get any PCM or FICM (?) but I did get full harnesses. The location I picked the motor up from had a bunch of 6.4 trucks running around, but my contact was not there so I couldn’t go for a ride. I am invited to a media event with driving privileges so I hope to have a seat-of-the-pants report within a week or two. Once again, I have to applaud Ford for doing a much better job on the initial engineering of this engine and truck. My initial opinion of this chassis is much more promising than when the 6.0 was released. Cab removal is supposed to be much easier (and much more often) for servicing this engine, so make sure your customers know this as they spec out ladder racks, attics, PTO cables, aftermarket wiring installs, and other BS that will get in the way. I hope the air filter fits better. Have a great T-day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Bruce... I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for sharing these photos with us... And to reimd the rest of the guys that it is one thing to stand back and "ooooh" and "ahhhh" over the photos.... This is our first really detailed look at this engine.. the engine that will make or break our paychecks in the near future.... Test mule or not, we should peruse these pics carefully... Anyone notice that this engine doesn't appear to have head studs? Or where what appears to be glow plugs are located? There's a lot of wiring around that fuel pump.. I hope that was for telemetry.... I don't (yet) see a VGT solenoid but there is an actuator rod coming from a <something> to about the right place on one turbo.... I am amazed that these pics haven't generated some sort of discussion (even if only to say "ohhh" and "ahhhh"). It may have slipped by some guys that this is how we make our living.... Now, more than ever before, an intricate knowledge of the product we are working on is important. We can be proactive, and teach ourselves about these things, or we can wait for guys like Keith and Bruce to do the work for us... never really learning how to figure things out on our own.... I know, that for Canadians, at least, news of these pics will swell the membership... but if 2% of those actually make a post, I'll be surprised.... Cmon, Canucks... make a liar out of me - even if it is only to flame me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 I wish you all the best with the next train wreck. I've gone to an independent that doesn't do diesel. I'm done with Ford without a guarantee. The shop I am in now doesn't have a guarantee but it also allows you to kick something to the curb before you starve yourself or the company...I used to be "the guy" that could fix anything...stubborn SOB. When it quit paying to be "the best" it was time to go in another direction. I actually wish I could go back to being a "B" tech where it's all brakes, flushes and suspension. Being an "A" tech is just a JOB for me, not something I enjoy on ANY level. Turned 8.7hrs the first day...it only can get worse from here! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I cant imagine where the head stud rumor came from but I have never worked on or seen one with studs. They have all been torque to yield bolts. I am not sure what you mean about glow plugs but they are located at the bottom of cylinder heads, they are under the round black plugs in the valve cover. The picture of the fuel pump shows the wiring for two new solenoids(pressure control and volume control), I believe that is where the wiring you spoke of is going. Last but not least, the VGT mechanisms are electric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselD Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Impressive...I can only imagine the fun its going to be to work on this thing. My biggest worry is all these people using racks that would prevent pulling the cab easily. I cant imagine ford hanging anymore junk off that engine but obviously they make it happen. I like the fact there is a pyrometer on it, I dont like the fact the y-pipes look of the same design, I wonder if there will be issues of them leaking like the 6.0? what about the econoline? will they manage to stuff this under the hood? Is it even physically possible? Im excited to see the launch, I hope for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Quote: Originally Posted By: rockbronco Impressive...I can only imagine the fun its going to be to work on this thing. My biggest worry is all these people using racks that would prevent pulling the cab easily. I cant imagine ford hanging anymore junk off that engine but obviously they make it happen. I like the fact there is a pyrometer on it, I dont like the fact the y-pipes look of the same design, I wonder if there will be issues of them leaking like the 6.0? what about the econoline? will they manage to stuff this under the hood? Is it even physically possible? Im excited to see the launch, I hope for the best. With Fords stranglehold on the Ambulance market I would guess it is going to get Jammed into a E-series somehow someway.I definately feel for you guys that Have to service E-series ambulances.Been there done that.They are not good memories Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 26, 2006 Author Share Posted November 26, 2006 Scott, this engine in an Econoline is something I fear the most. The 6.0L ranks up in the "terrifying nightmare" category for me. I understand that there is a market for diesel vans but Ford has really got to do something about serviceability on these engine and chassis combinations. Maybe something along the lines of a front sub-frame assembly similar to what front wheel drive cars use. At least then we could still raise the body and expose the engine. This would also be good because a tech could use any lift and lift the truck up as normal... but the engine/trans stays on the ground! Hey, anybody from Ford here paying attention? Stick that idea in the suggestion box! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 An even better idea for F-series and E-series. How about a "tilt-over" style access, the way it is on F-650/F-750 or the GMC HD van? I vaguely remember a rumour that that was originally the intended direction with the E-series, prior to the 6.0's release? What happened to that? Let me guess, could it be something to do with money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 I think my overall body temperature dropped like 9 degrees after seeing those pics. This is going to make things really interesting for sure - that big cooler up front should really liven up belt replacements on hot engines. Oh well, though - gotta roll with the punches, right? Complaining isn't gonna fix anything so now we just gotta figure out the best way around this clusterf*ck. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGM Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Jim, Like Cetane mentioned, your concerns are more from lack of explanation.. The head studs were pure rumor, you just wont see them on a factory engine.. The new bolts are Tq to yeild, larger in diameter and shorter(they do not go through the rocker box anymore). This will eliminate the dissimilar metal expansion possibilites effecting bolt tq in my opinion. The glow plus are in the same place(they are the same heads as 1/06 and newer 6.0L's), the rocker box and valve cover are the differences, so it looks much different. The connectors even appear to have the same clamp together cover on them that might make removal of the plug a bit challenging at times. As for the VGT, its electronic in very much the same way(similar design)as a intake manifold runner control that you would find on a gas burner.. We will now have the ability to move the turbo during KOEO if calibrated to do so, as well as being able to tell possition of it... In short, from what I have seen and heard so far, ALL of the issues that have occured with the 6.0L have been addressed in one way or another.. Who knows what's really going to brake? Unfortunatly, you guys make your living on broken vehicles, if these things dont brake you may be wishing for 6.0L's to return.. We just have to be prepared and the pictures and discussion will help dramaticly.. Hope it works out.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 I think the problem that most techs have with the 6.0 is not that they break, but they have a tendancy to pay horribly under warranty for the work performed. Sometimes you can make out great depending on how the story is interpereted, but a good majority of the 6.0 repairs can be pretty painstaking and seemingly not worth the effort put into them. Personally, I don't really mind the 6.0, but that's because that's the diesel that I've kinda "cut my teeth" on - I'm more scared of the 7.3 than the 6.0 because my diesel work is only about 10% 7.3 stuff, and most of that is oil-pan replacement because the other diesel guy tries not to get bogged-down with time-consuming engine removals/teardowns. It's not that I dislike the 7.3, it's actually very easy to work on, but I'm less confident in the work that I do to it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGM Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Dave, You make a very valid point that I cant argue with.. They certainly arent "fun" to work on for the pay.. I think diesel techs deserve much more per hr than they typicaly get.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Dave, You make a very valid point that I cant argue with.. They certainly aren't "fun" to work on for the pay.. I think diesel techs deserve much more per hr than they typically get.. I decided my health was worth more than money, which WAS insufficent...the stress was just more than I could bear! Later guys! Wish you luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 HGM, Cetane et al (man, this old guy has problems with people that don't habe "names")... The head stud rumour surfaced a long, long time ago - not sure where but it would be a way of increasing strength without increasing diameter in an area of the cylinder block where an increase in diameter may compromise the female threads.... A 2mm increase in this area puts our threads 1mm closer to the cylinder wall on either side of the shared bolts.... Like anyone else, I'm working off of what I read... with a disadvantage being that we Canadians are treated like redheaded stepchildren as far as Ford is concerned.... Getting back to the point, I felt that Bruce's pictures would have generated a lot more commentary than we've seen thus far... Even if the main commetary would be "I'm going to find a rewarding career in door to door, multi-level marketing".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I posted a couple more pictures in the photo area of the 6.4 high pressure pump and Henry's office. Also, if anyone is interested in a cool 1:41 minute long video of how a Bosch Piezo injector works, I uploaded it to YouSendIt.com. Here's the link, which is only good for 7 days: http://download.yousendit.com/85A07FA7049AD937 http://www.yousendit.com/download/mbqDl6kDoxN5TA%3D%3D You may have to sign up (free) to download it, but I'm not sure. Don't worry, they don't pester you with spam.... Have a great week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 4, 2006 Author Share Posted December 4, 2006 I don't know if any of you have noticed but when you start a new topic OR replay to one, you have an option to add a poll AND upload a file attachment to the post! As long as it isn't abused I plan on keeping that feature turned on. Feel free to use it for files like this (Bruce's) and other things to be shared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I posted a couple more pictures in the photo area of the 6.4 high pressure pump and Henry's office. Also, if anyone is interested in a cool 1:41 minute long video of how a Bosch Piezo injector works, I uploaded it to YouSendIt.com. Here's the link, which is only good for 7 days: http://download.yousendit.com/85A07FA7049AD937 http://www.yousendit.com/download/mbqDl6kDoxN5TA%3D%3D You may have to sign up (free) to download it, but I'm not sure. Don't worry, they don't pester you with spam.... Have a great week! Hey - is there a chance you could possibly send the file to my personal e-mail? I can't sign up for the site because the "activation e-mail" never gets sent to me, I think the junk filter instantly deletes it. davel@wickmail.com If not, it's cool, but I'd really appreciate it if possible. Thanks! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 HGM, Cetane et al (man, this old guy has problems with people that don't habe "names")... The head stud rumour surfaced a long, long time ago - not sure where but it would be a way of increasing strength without increasing diameter in an area of the cylinder block where an increase in diameter may compromise the female threads.... A 2mm increase in this area puts our threads 1mm closer to the cylinder wall on either side of the shared bolts.... Like anyone else, I'm working off of what I read... with a disadvantage being that we Canadians are treated like redheaded stepchildren as far as Ford is concerned.... Getting back to the point, I felt that Bruce's pictures would have generated a lot more commentary than we've seen thus far... Even if the main commetary would be "I'm going to find a rewarding career in door to door, multi-level marketing".... Jim, I've been to busy to comment, ya know some of us actually work for a living and can't get online much. But seriously and all kidding aside, Bruce's pics are awesome and put alot in perspective. I am looking foward to it for now at least. One things for sure, it's 50 lbs of crap in a 5 lb bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 5, 2006 Share Posted December 5, 2006 Hey - is there a chance you could possibly send the file to my personal e-mail? I can't sign up for the site because the "activation e-mail" never gets sent to me, I think the junk filter instantly deletes it. davel@wickmail.com If not, it's cool, but I'd really appreciate it if possible. Thanks! Dave No can do, the file is 40 meg and too big to e-mail, that's why I use YouSendIt. Have a buddy sign up for YSI and download it for you. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted December 5, 2006 Share Posted December 5, 2006 Well I saw it - interesting! As far as I understand, this injector is going to fire up to 3 times per power stroke, correct? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGM Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 Last I heard was 5 and should be capible of 8-9x... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 I posted a couple more pictures in the photo area of the 6.4 high pressure pump and Henry's office. Also, if anyone is interested in a cool 1:41 minute long video of how a Bosch Piezo injector works, I uploaded it to YouSendIt.com. Here's the link, which is only good for 7 days: http://download.yousendit.com/85A07FA7049AD937 http://www.yousendit.com/download/mbqDl6kDoxN5TA%3D%3D You may have to sign up (free) to download it, but I'm not sure. Don't worry, they don't pester you with spam.... Have a great week! Very cool! Thanks Bruce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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