Looking for honest flat rate opinions

[Clark]

Hey guys,  I brought it up in the introductions thread, but I'm looking for some honest opinions on the flat rate business.  I've got 5 years of experience as an hourly truck tech - everything from in the shop, to running a service truck, to running the shop and parts department as night foreman; and I've spent the last 2 years doing tech support for dealerships at a large Ag OEM.

 

I'm looking to make a personal move to a different area and I have a job opportunity as a Ford/Chrysler diesel tech at a decent size dealer.

I've spoken with some friends that have worked flat rate in the past with mostly positive reviews, but like anyone else I've heard all the horror stories.  I'm just looking for some honest opinions from both sides of the fence to help me make a decision. 

 

The job would be straight flat rate with a possible guarantee for a short period of time right after I start.  The dealer has 1 primarily Ford diesel tech and 1 primarily Chrysler diesel tech, and I would be jumping between the 2 lines.

 

Thanks!

[MecGen]

Hello

 

I have worked with the flat rate system, and without. The best opinion I can give is "it depends on the shop"...

 

When I worked in the west coasts, most shops were geared around flat rate service, including advisors and management, I can say it was a pleasure to earn your keep this way. Then I moved out east and it was a whole different story, complete opposite. IMHO the way the shop is run - tools, parts guys, advisors, management - will have as much an impact on how well the flat rate system works for you as the book times do. Problem is, there is no real way to tell if its a good shop except to jump in.

 

Good luck

[batmantech]

Mecgen is right. If the shop is set up you will be fine. It seems as though techs in general are very difficult to find. That should bring your value up. I would visit the shop talk to the other 2 diesel techs they and the service manager will be your key to this working.  Talk to each on separately, see how busy they really are. That will determine if they are going to work with you. I would go for a min. base pay at least at first. If they really need someone they will roll out the red carpet for you.

Also remember you need to do this for yourself. If it is the move you have wanted then go for it. Life is short. No regrets. No I wish I would have done that. It seems like you are in the driver seat and that is a very good thing.

[Brad Clayton]

You gentlemen bring up some good points however you have left out one very important factor..............factory warranty. Chrysler has the absolute worst labor times in the history of the automobile and Ford has followed suite with the 6.7 Powerstroke.

 

So yes I would definitely suggest talking to the existing help and find out what there customer pay to warranty ratio is keeping in mind that you may be cutting into that one way or the other and thus making enemies or friends. It could be all peaches and cream or a tricky situation

[Matt Saunoras]

I know one thing for sure, aside from competing with your coworkers, working diesel flat rate isn't very forgiving. It doesn't care if you're not feeling 100%, or you hurt yourself the day before, or you were up all night because of a family emergency. At the beginning of the day you are a zero and if you find yourself working nights and weekends to make 40 it's going to take a huge toll on your mind.

 

I'm young, I still heal fast but that's changing and I can feel it. I knelt down a little too hard today in the parking lot while changing some EGTs on a waiter F-550. That's all it took to break my concentration as my brain basically went into self preservation mode for the rest of the day. It might be okay if the job wasn't so demanding but we're all here because we're diesel techs. We get the hardest of the hard to begin with.

[Clark]

You gentlemen bring up some good points however you have left out one very important factor..............factory warranty. Chrysler has the absolute worst labor times in the history of the automobile and Ford has followed suite with the 6.7 Powerstroke.So yes I would definitely suggest talking to the existing help and find out what there customer pay to warranty ratio is keeping in mind that you may be cutting into that one way or the other and thus making enemies or friends. It could be all peaches and cream or a tricky situation

One of the things I specifically asked about was what the shop environment was like. I only spoke with the service manager, but he said the 2 diesel guys get along very well. His exact words were, "They're too busy to care about what job the other guy has." I like to think I'm a likable guy.

[kellyf]

I myself,would advise against flat rate.For one thing,you are use to hourly pay.Since 2008,my numbers dropped in half due to bs labor times, jumping thru hoops and unfair delegation of work.I also found being the new guy meant I got the worst of the worst jobs. I was senior master and had 25 years experience.As for top pay, that doesn't mean crap when you have no hours.Yes,I agree there is a big demand for skilled techs. I have dealers calling me all the time. I ask hourly? No ,but we have lots of work. Usually bs talk for we will get you in the door and see what happens. I have seen many good techs fall by the wayside over the last few years and I is not getting any better. I worked on gas and diesel and took pride in my work. I was always concerned about doing a good job. When I became Senior master,it went to s$#t, because all I got was diesel warranty. This is the only industry on the planet that punishes you for dedication,hard work and be highly educated. I work for a fleet now and It is much less stressful.No flat rape and no real politics to mention. That is my 2 cents worth

[lmorris]

I have noticed a drop in retail labor times as well. Mitchell used to average 1.6 times what factory warranty times were, now they average 1.1. Your only saving grace is getting enough work to get fast at them. My monthly average has dropped almost 50 hours in the last 10 years thanks to labor times, both retail and warranty. Thing is, unless you go to a small independent shop, it's all flat rate around here. Only thing keeping me here is I have an awesome boss. Going on 20 years with this guy. 

[RyanG]

Flat would be alright if you never had to do warranty work. Gear up for getting bent over once in a while.

[Clark]

So the general consensus is that I need to ask the techs themselves about the warrant/customer pay ratio, and ask the SM if I'll be stuck with all the warranty work. I'll have to see what I can do next time I'm there. I appreciate it guys. In a lot of ways, I dont think I know the right questions to ask about this job.

[Matt Saunoras]

What ever you do decide remember there's a great bunch of guys on here that are always willing to provide valuable information at a moments notice. If you have a good feeling about the gig everything will be okay.

[KarlW]

In my opinion from a dealer perspective,

 

Being Flat rate was a good thing many years ago. 

 

there are too many variables to make it work

 

If you do decide to work Flat rate @ the dealer, Your better off being an average to under average tech at least in management's eyes.

that way you don't keep getting asked(F#$ked)all day every day to repair the repeat comebacks and all the other BS. While them under performing techs get fed all day.

 

Just say I don't know how!!! you'll be better off. Then you can do gravy all day with the rest.

 

I think Fleet is by far better, Put your resume into Colleges, Municipalities, State jobs......, You will be much happier and way less stressed!!

They are always looking for good Techs. After all most of them jobs usually have -"the because you know somebody" Guys working there. Not that there all bad but..

 

Bennies, pay, OT, are MUCH better too. 

[ktmlew]

In my opinion from a dealer perspective,

 

Being Flat rate was a good thing many years ago. 

 

there are too many variables to make it work

 

If you do decide to work Flat rate @ the dealer, Your better off being an average to under average tech at least in management's eyes.

that way you don't keep getting asked(F#$ked)all day every day to repair the repeat comebacks and all the other BS. While them under performing techs get fed all day.

 

Just say I don't know how!!! you'll be better off. Then you can do gravy all day with the rest.

 

I think Fleet is by far better, Put your resume into Colleges, Municipalities, State jobs......, You will be much happier and way less stressed!!

They are always looking for good Techs. After all most of them jobs usually have -"the because you know somebody" Guys working there. Not that there all bad but..

 

Bennies, pay, OT, are MUCH better too. 

 

Agree 100 %. Started a fleet job little over a week ago servicing a bunch of Chevy pickups, vans & box vans. Also appears i'll be fixing some portable generators too. Hourly with good benefits. Basically running my own shop. So far, loving it! 

[kellyf]

Clark.They will tell you what you want to hear. Beware Beware Beware!!!!!!!

[YukonTyler]

As stated earlier your pay under flat rate is only partially on you - your productivity is partially dependent on those whose pay cheques are not performance-based. Partsmen, advisors, tower operators and managers can make things go swimmingly or bring you right down. I find it frustrating having to depend on those around you when so often in my life I prefer to do things solo.

 

That being said, learn SLTS and warranty policy. Code your own warranty lines. Do not get burned by prior approval, esp approval and cost cap. Do this and you'll be ahead of the game as far as mitigating the downside of warranty work is concerned.

 

As much as it sucks watching the mouthbreathers do brake jobs, prepaid maintenance and wallet flushes all day, do go out for training to get certified. When times are slow there is always warranty jobs to fall back on provided your sales dept has sold a truck or two.

 

I love flat rate and find it the fairest system for customer and tech. It rewards accurate diagnostics and proficient, strong repair practices. It also complements a strong work ethic and a young body.

[forddieseldoctor]

I was on flat rate for the first 5 years of my career. Hated it. Constantly 30 to 35 hours a week. I managed to get into a dealer that pays hourly with flat rate bounus. Plus there's a different mentality here. I'm now producing around 60 hours a week.

[kellyf]

You find it fair?

Please alaberate

[Keith Browning]

I think that was sarcasm. No. No... yup. I am sure that it was!

[YukonTyler]

I said that it was the fairest system for both customer and tech.

 

It comes down to efficiency. Let's say that there's a truck with an intermittent ABS concern. Because of my skill, knowledge, experience and investment in tooling I have the thing diag'd in 20 minutes and repaired in another 40.

 

I charge out 1.0 for my diag for a couple reasons. 1) By charging for diagnosis I am taking on a certain responsibility with regard to its accuracy. If my diag is dead wrong then I'm not going to get away with charging for it. 2) I diag'd in only 20 minutes due to the aforementioned reasons, but Buddy down the way lacks both the equipment and the know how. It takes him 90 minutes to diag the same fault. The customer should not pay more due to Buddy's shortcomings. The 1.0 flat rate diag charge is fair to the customer because he is paying me an average labour time for an above average tech. It is fair to me because I am making time due to being above average.

 

Flat rate is also fair to both parties because a job gets paid once. Comebacks due to poor workmanship are on the tech. Techs are rewarded for speed and quality while the customer has assurance that he is only paying once.

[Matt Saunoras]

That sounds great! Where do I sign up?

[cbriggs]

Well said Tyler!

[ktmlew]

I said that it was the fairest system for both customer and tech.

 

 

 

Flat rate is also fair to both parties because a job gets paid once. Comebacks due to poor workmanship are on the tech. Techs are rewarded for speed and quality while the customer has assurance that he is only paying once.

I been doing this shit for 40 years. NEVER...I repeat...NEVER seen a tech get back-flagged for a mis-diag and also very seldom seen a repair go back to the tech that mis-diagnosed it. I got it AFTER thee gravey dog sucked all the money out of the customers wallet. Would take me 5 minutes to find the PCV hose with the gaping hole or the wiring shorted on the EGR tube, etc. I was very lucky to get paid an hour FOR ACTUALLY FIXING THE CAR because they sure as hell wouldn't take any money from their Supertech!

 

Your idea sounds good but isn't reality in 95% of shops.

[Keith Browning]

Um, the system is so skewed and the game played so well by so many. It promotes cheating, poor workmanship and manipulation. On occasion I have witnessed outright theft/corruption not just by technicians but by dealerships as a way of life. The system is not fucking fair to everyone by any stretch of the imagination. Unfortunately, it is the fairest system we have otherwise we would be doing it differently.

[YukonTyler]

I agree that it's hardly perfect, and there are definitely shops and techs who abuse the structure for their own gain. But as stated it is the fairest thing around.

 

I've worked straight time - good old Subaru. My experience with it wasn't good, but that doesn't mean it's all bad. I used to love doing timing belt jobs on the EJ 22 and EJ 25 - bang them off in 45 minutes and they were paying ~3 hours. One time when things were slow I did 2 in a morning among some other jobs and then had no work lined up for the rest of the day. The owner told me to 'take the afternoon off' at lunch time. Foolish me thinking that I would get paid for the day. Instead I got 4 hours of straight time while he billed out flat rate hours on my production. Fvck that noise - I was out of there so fast. The idea of producing well and having somebody else completely benefit off of my efficiency does not sit well with me.

 

The original thought on this thread was honest opinions on flat rate. The original poster has heard the good and the bad now. haha

[Matt Saunoras]

The original thought on this thread was honest opinions on flat rate. The original poster has heard the good and the bad now. haha

Ain't that the truth. Stick a bunch of flat rate guys in a room together and it won't be long before they're arguing about something.