Keith Browning Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I have a rough one here that is hard to pin down. 2005 Excursion with a P0069 Continuous and the drivability issue is intermittent lack of power - the engine feels and sounds like it is choking and emits black smoke. Does not happen cold, only once warmed up it seems and then it goes away, comes back. The first tech taking a whack at it had put in an EGR valve (sticking) and a MAP sensor. Truck came back. I originally had an EBP circuit code and ended up putting an EBP in it. Long story short, if I follow the PCED it never has be checking circuits and depending on how I answer the first test, its either "cant duplicate at this time" or if I proceed it leads me to replace the PCM. I have 5V VREF but I am checking it in the bay while the problem is not occurring. Performed a wiggle test on the harness and substituted a known good BARO sensor. I just hat throwing PCMs at trucks without solid evidence its bad but... Anyone had a tough one like this or what have you been seeing with this code? I have only run across this a few times over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2006 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I remember after a head gasket job I got this code. Some coolant was inside the ebp sensor, my fault. The pinpoint test didn't really help me, but I knew this code was not there before I started the job and it had to be something I did. And we had a couple of delivery vans that kept setting this code years ago. It used to set when they were driving over mountain passes in winter. There was a ssm for a reflash. Something to do with condensation freezing inside the ebp tube on a cold engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Well, for the first time ever... I am stumped! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I've been lucky and never seen that code by itself, it's always coupled with other air management DTCs which leads me to believe there are other things that can set it besides the MAP, BARO or PCM. The pinpoint test is a joke. I have had a rash of bad VGT solenoids lately causing all kinds of weird concerns. Got a spare you can try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Matt, I agree about the PP tests - and the code all by itself usually is the result of a bad MAP or BARO sensor. The code sets by itself BUT It did set an EBP sensor circuit code... ONCE. The turbo has been reconditioned, tested and inspected, known good VGT solenoid tried, new EGR valve, New EBP and pigtail, new MAP sensor, known good BARO sensor tried, new PCM, checked the CAT for being broken (it is good) inspected the EGR throttle plate and it springs back to open as it should. According to the HotLine an exhaust leak, intake leak or restrictions can skew the MAP reading and cause this. But intermittently? If I disconnect the EGR valve its fine. If I disconnect the EBP sensor its fine but it does overboost. If I recall, putting the turbo at 50% its fine too. I have also verified fuel pressure while driving and it stays up. Now I am circling around, checked the MAP and EBP circuits and VREF voltage. I am fixated on air management and the EGR in particular based on how the truck feels, sounds and the fact that watching out the right mirror when I dip into the throttle as this happens, I get a good puff of white/gray smoke and then a burst of black and then the engine jumps to life. Does not happen cold, progressively gets worse as the engine warms up and is almost consistent when at full temp. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 05 excursion with an 04 engine? Any chance this thing somehow got the wrong calibration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 05 excursion with an 04 engine? Any chance this thing somehow got the wrong calibration?Not likely. The truck came in this way originally. I went out to the shop's IDS and looked at the log file from the IDS session from the tech that worked on it. P0069 was retrieved them. but now that you mention it is worth looking at the log again to see if it got updated. I still doubt this is it though. The truck have been here many times over the years and has bee updated without issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Very strange. How about the wiring loom above the turbo that contains the MAP wiring? It does honestly sound like an EGR issue but not sure how that's possible. I do know you can remove the throttle plate without removing the housing or unplugging it electronically. Be very careful not to drop the screws into the intake. Maybe the plate is not operating correctly and just isn't setting a code? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Incorrect EGR valve??? If this vehicle does in fact have an '04 engine in it, make sure you use an '03/'04 EGR valve, NOT an '05 and up one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Mike, You seem to be good with these details - does a 2005 6.0L have an EGR throttle plate? You guys have me thinking that this truck is one of those weird combination builds that has stuff in it that is not necessarily expected. The original valve which was factory, was sticking when I looked at it before the tech replaced it.. Would the wrong valve behave similarly? I seem to remember somebody posting about this (possibly you) The 2005 EVTM does not show the EGR throttle at all but if you look at the 2004 book it IS there. I inspected the truck for this originally and there is a functioning EGRTP, wires, terminals and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy_M Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I do remember Mike talking about 04/05 excursions and the engines they used, found it just a few posts down from this one. http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/topic/5876-2005-excursion-p0404-and-p1335/?do=findComment&comment=57366 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 An early 05 excursion used a carryover 04 engine. It had all the same engine components as an 04 pickup or e-series would come with. Swash plate HPOP, EGR throttle plate and the early 03-04 EGR valve. An 05 F or E series does not have a throttle plate. These excursions simply got the leftover engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2006 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I would suggest to check the ebp tube. When restricted/plugged, I've seen them cause ebp circuit codes. Not because theres a circuit fault, but because the reading can be too high due to exhaust pressure trapped in the tube. To test, I remove the ebp sensor from the tube and leave it connected to the wiring harness. This will make to turbo vanes go to the full closed position because its trying to raise the backpressure. Then check the exhaust flow out of the tube, should be a good flow of exhaust out of it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Well, it appears a 2005+ EGR valve was installed 5C3Z-9F452-ARM I have the correct valve for this 2004.25 engine in stock 4C3Z-9F452-ARM and will give that a try The Hot-Line agrees with what is being discussed here. At the very least I need to make sure the correct valve is installed, hopefully this resolves the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 I can also verify that the EGR position voltages are different between the two valves at the same incremental positions. So I installed the correct valve this morning. Truck still acts up. This would be funny if it wasn't so sadly frustrating. I am beginning to feel a little defeated right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Sorry I didn't reply sooner Keith. I have been pretty backed up with my own shit lately too, between struggling to figure out two 6.7 trucks that stubbornly and repeatedly set EGT 1_4 circuit and range DTCs to 1.6 Ecoturd engines overheating and consuming coolant. But yeah, it looks like you guys have it figured out. The '05 Excursions that use the '04 engines MUST use '04 engine parts, even though Microcat and HvBOM will still list '05 engine part numbers for that vehicle. They even have a 4C3Z (or in the case of Excursions 4C7Z???) PCM calibration strategies to go along with it. But back to your original concern, have tried removing the EGR throttle plate? I know it's a long shot but I vaguely recall two such trucks years ago experiencing similar symptoms to what you describe that I repaired successfully with replacing the throttle plate housing assembly. Although to be honest, I don't remember them setting P0069. In fact I think they did set EGR throttle position codes (P0487 if I recall correctly but don't quote me on it). One, I even watched the throttle plate moving to random positions when un commanded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Checking that thing is my next step MIke as it is the only thing I have not messed with other than pulling the gooseneck off and verifying that it is there and has return tension on it and it springs open. I was looking at the wiring diagram... also, there is no PID for position on the EGRTP, only DUTY%. I forgot to mention that with the correct EGR valve installed it now sets a P0401... along with the P0069. If that throttle plate can fail to close it can also fail to open which might cause the Po401. Being closed when it should not be would be a big restriction... which might cause the P0069. Am I right in my thinking? Can you tell I am shot at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 If it's setting P0401, I'd be checking to see if the EGR cooler is blocked up with carbon. I would even pull IAT #2 out and give it a good cleaning with carb cleaner too. We all know how they like to gum up, which affects IAT #2 readings, which if I'm not mistaken is definitely one of the inputs to the PCM that affects EGR system operation, and hence possibly setting your P0401. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I thought the purpose of the EGR throttle plate was to restrict intake airflow during operating conditions under which EGR flow is requested or needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Yes the plate basically blocks boost. When EBP is higher than boost in the intake (always) it promotes good EGR flow, how much difference between boost and EBP will dictate how much positive EGR flow. Perhaps if the engine has a restricted EGR cooler the throttle plate could be used more to block incoming boost and in theory make more EGR flow. The way I test for a welded off or clogged up EGR cooler is to remove the EGR valve completely and start the engine. If the engine runs fine and doesn't choke out then there is not enough (if any) flow through the cooler. The plate can be removed from the EGR throttle housing while still leaving it plugged in electronically. This could rule out any undesired operation from the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Had a VT365 (6.0 PSD) in a school bus last year in class with a really oddball EGR surge not too different than yours, it had a new EGR and had a bunch of new sensors. I road tested it with the whole class, thought it was either MAP or EBP (which were both new), and told the students to pull them out, apply a known pressure to the bottom, and compare to PID data and/or voltage specs. The problem was quickly found, a wrong EBP sensor. The IH dealer gave them a VT275 sensor instead of a VT365. It's fast, maybe check yours to make sure they are good? Here's how I did it lately on a 6.7 MAP, I was at sea level so Baro was 14.7, doing the math gets 14.3 which is close enough for me. Testing for a biased sensor: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsona19 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I had a blocked ebp tube kick my ass in the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 Well, once I discovered and replaced all of the incorrect parts that were installed with the right parts for a 2004.25 engine, things changed. Boy did things change.The truck actually ran worse but it then produced the right codes. P0069, P0299, P0401 & P2263. After I cleaned the EBP tube, I then discovered that the fitting on the manifold and the adapter mounted to the thermostat housing were plugged up solid. Would have been easy to find the first time. I don't know who to be pissed at, the guy that put the parts in the truck or the guy that gave them to him. But as I calm down I realize that was probably an easy mistake to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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