What's In Your Bay - Part VI

[Matt Saunoras]

Yeah the pump can pull a vacuum on the tank when the vent is restricted. I have seen this on newer super duty plastic midship tanks which collapse quite easily.

 

I don't think this can happen in one tank of fuel, it keeps getting sucked in more and more over time and because its metal it eventually holds the new shape.

[batmantech]

98 contour no start 89 bronco 2 stuck in 4 low .....Good times......oh yeah...

[Matt Saunoras]

Got another 04 6.0 in here. Starts, runs fine, accelerated fine until I tried to wot up my diagnostic hill, then it fell on its face. All pids okay, check fuel pressure, makes 60psi but has no volume.

[lmorris]

I really didn't know an aft axle tank could do that.

I have seen that a few times. The vent has always been full of sand on them when they come in.

[YukonTyler]

- 2014 F150 3.7 will not shift from 4hi to 4low ..... pulled it apart and took chunks of bearing out of the planetary

- 2014 F350 6.7 will not shift into 4hi .... open wire between C1010 at the l/front fender and the shift motor

 

other than that there's precious little ... I feel like my pay cheque is going to be made up of oil changes and license lamp pigtails.

[Bruce Amacker]

Can't you just pressure it up with shop air and pop it back into shape? Yes, I was actually asked that once.

I worked on many tanker trucks over the years, mostly that carried Hypochlorite (sp?) which is liquid chlorine (similar to household bleach) for a swimming pool chemical company whose trucks we serviced.  The delivery drivers would regularly forget to open the vents which would collapse the huge plastic tanks (typical tank 300-1000gal). I "rigged" up a wood 4x4 about 3' long with a chain to the towmotor, stuck the thing into the large opening in the top of the tank and use the towmotor to pull the tank back into shape.  Did it many times and don't think it was a safety concern doing it.  Compressed air would scare the f out of me, though. You could get tricky- if you filled it with water first, then applied compressed air, expand it a bit, then fill it with more water, then more air, etc. it would make it much safer.

 

Another one was a DT466E with a leaking middle o-ring on the injector (HEUI).  It pumped the contents of the oil pan (30 qts) into an already-full fuel tank, ballooning a 50 gal tank to nearly 60 gallons which looked like something from a cartoon. Let's see, 500-3000psi ICP applied to a diesel fuel tank...... I remember the driver calling in on that one and telling us what he saw.

 

The best one was the Wallover Oil Co. driver who forgot to open the vent on top of the semi truck oil tanker trailer, it collapsed the tank and totaled the trailer.  How embarrassing!  it looked like this:

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.energyjustice.net/system/files/styles/large/private/-8e94a14fcd8acc07.JPG%253Fitok%253DZwIijexm&imgrefurl=http://www.energyjustice.net/tags/pollution&h=319&w=480&tbnid=MEh6czuMfw0PuM:&docid=S048zdjM-U9XAM&ei=QD-FVtPrD8iqeN2aquAG&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwjTi4mDq4bKAhVIFR4KHV2NCmwQMwhBKBowGg

 

These were all before digital cameras and cell phones.  I'm old.

[YukonTyler]

It warmed up to the freezing mark today so I took advantage of the weather and did the first service on my tractor ........ 40 liters of Chevron TDH 1000 (on sale for $58/20 liters at the local UFA), 7 liters of stockpiled Motorcraft 75w140, 10 liters of stockpiled 5w40 Chevron Delo and $230 for an oil filter, pump filter, hydro filter, fuel filter and air filter.

 

I also rigged up my new used slip tank. No more hoisting 5 gallon jugs up to shoulder height! It got drained, flushed with clean diesel and then rigged with a new filter. I ran the fresh fuel through a coffee filter and got some pretty darn good results.

[JoeR]

I don't cross paths with too many 6.4s.  This one came in in derate, and had thermostat troubles.  MIL was illuminated for a while.  Customer kept driving it, not knowing the trouble it would cause him. DPF backpressure was 5+ PSI at high idle.

Thermostat and DPF Codes:

Thermostats looked like this:

 

I learned a lesson on this one.  I knew the 6.4 wouldn't allow a regen unless the DPF was plugged.  Even though it was in derate, the DPF Data showed that it was partially filled and it wouldn't allow a regen.  I had to road test it to make it change to "Plugged". Then it regenned with no trouble.

 

Joe

[Bruce Amacker]

 

 

 I knew the 6.4 wouldn't allow a regen unless the DPF was plugged.  Even though it was in derate, the DPF Data showed that it was partially filled and it wouldn't allow a regen.  I had to road test it to make it change to "Plugged". Then it regenned with no trouble.

 

Joe

 

If you had a real scan tool you could run a regen at will. PL IQ?

 

[JoeR]

 

 

 

 I knew the 6.4 wouldn't allow a regen unless the DPF was plugged.  Even though it was in derate, the DPF Data showed that it was partially filled and it wouldn't allow a regen.  I had to road test it to make it change to "Plugged". Then it regenned with no trouble.

 

Joe

 

If you had a real scan tool you could run a regen at will. PL IQ?

 

 

 

Really?  Both the Snap-on and Nexiq require a full DPF, only on the 6.4 though.  I was under the impression that they mocked the IDS.  Aftermarket scan tools really aren't capable of making up their own rules on output tests.  I know there is no substitute for an OEM scanner, but some of the aftermarket stuff is pretty capable.

 

 

[forddieseldoctor]

Not my bay at work... But my ranger I bought is getting a motor at a buddy's shop.

 

[Bruce Amacker]

The Cyl Cont screen looks comparable but the Relative Comp screen lacks easy-to-read percentage numbers per cyl which are important. I had an IQ from Nexiq on loan years ago and helped them evaluate new software written for the IH's.   It's a great tool and has terrific hardware capabilities but they don't have the software up to speed, if you ask me. If you can't run a forced regen you probably aren't getting the DPF clean.  With 5PSI at WOT it will need several regens to clean up, you will see .03-.05psi on a nice clean DPF at idle and 1-1.5psi at WOT. I've done hundreds of regens comparing before and after numbers and it usually takes a few to clean them up. Commonly the backpressure will go up after the first regen rather than down.........

 

The IQ won't run a forced regen at all?

 

See this old post for some captures:

 

http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/topic/5119-64-aftertreatment-diagnostics/?hl=%2B6.4+%2Baftertreatment

 

 

[JoeR]

The Cyl Cont screen looks comparable but the Relative Comp screen lacks easy-to-read percentage numbers per cyl which are important. I had an IQ from Nexiq on loan years ago and helped them evaluate new software written for the IH's.   It's a great tool and has terrific hardware capabilities but they don't have the software up to speed, if you ask me. If you can't run a forced regen you probably aren't getting the DPF clean.  With 5PSI at WOT it will need several regens to clean up, you will see .03-.05psi on a nice clean DPF at idle and 1-1.5psi at WOT. I've done hundreds of regens comparing before and after numbers and it usually takes a few to clean them up. Commonly the backpressure will go up after the first regen rather than down......... The IQ won't run a forced regen at all? See this old post for some captures: http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/topic/5119-64-aftertreatment-diagnostics/?hl=%2B6.4+%2Baftertreatment

 DPF backpressure looked good after one only regen.  I thought I'd have to take it out for a beating, but didn't.  The Nexiq stuff will command a regen on anything except a Cat.  That Function is part of the Aftertreatment control Module, and they haven't decided to release that. The 6.4 requires a full DPF to command a regen.  If you command a it when the DPF doesn't read "Full" then it just aborts.  On any other vehicle you can command a regen at any time.  That matches what the Snap-on scannr does.  Nexiq and Snap-on don't cooperate on scanner functionality, so with them being engineered separately but behaving the same, I assumed OEM was the same.  I'll give it a try next time I have an IDS at my disposal.That old post of yours is great.  Lots of good info there.  Thanks,Joe

[JoeR]

I talked to a buddy today that does nothing but work on Ford Diesels.  He has an IDS.  He told me the IDS behaves the same as a Snap-on on the 6.4L.  You command a regen, the test begins like normal.  If the PCM decides a regen is not needed the test aborts in a few minutes.  

There's no shortage of IDS users on this forum, so if my buddy is incorrect, be sure to set me straight on it.  It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.  Not even today!  :-)

 

Joe

[Bruce Amacker]

Here's my experience:

 

1. When initiating a Regen the IDS almost always tells you that a regen is not needed, even when restricted with an active DTC. I just override the message and command one anyway.

 

2. IDS frequently kicks out of regen for no reason with a weird error message. (I have several of these messages stored somewhere) It seems these aborts are random and not related to pressures. I'll restart it after an abort and it will complete a long regen.

 

3. It runs a regen for a random length of time and finishes with either an error message or a completed message.  I ignore either and determine if it needs another by DPF pressures at idle and WOT. I use .20/idle as a max high, I like .02-.05 at an idle and 1-1.5PSI at WOT for a clean DPF.

 

4. 6.4 quirk- you can't watch EGTs during regen, on 6.7s you can.  Every other mfr I've run regens on you can watch EGT temps. (This is super important on MD/HD to let you know the DOC is lit. It's common to have a clogged aft injector or poisoned cat that doesn't light off properly and EGT12 only makes 800-900F with is no good. I've never seen a poisoned cat on a Ford and they use post-injection so this doesn't really apply.)  When a 6.4 completes a regen, I usually jump right into the EGT PIDS and make sure 12/13 are over 1000F so I know the DOC and DPF are lit nicely, then watch them come down while idling.

 

5. IMHO it takes 2-3 regens to clean up the average restricted DPF, I idle the engine for 20-30 minutes after the last regen completion to complete the burn.  As long as the EGT12/13/14 are above 600-700F there's still burn going on in the DPF. If you shut off the engine you stop the flow of oxygen, which stops the burn in the DPF.

 

6. On 6.7s they seem to have DPF_Soot_Inf and DPF_Load_Percent backwards. On other makes the soot % will go to zero and the load will come down, on the 6.7 the load will come down to zero (or sometimes a small negative number) (it commonly starts at 50-60% on a non-DTC truck) and the Soot goes from 1.5 or 2ish to .9 or something. If you think about it, Soot should go to zero after regenning and load should drop somewhat.  IMO, Ford has the labels backwards.

Sidebar- on the latest flash levels they took the DPF_Load out of the PID list and you have to go to the Regen screen to view it.  WTF for?

 

7. Like I said earlier, it's common for the DPF pressures to go up after one regen when it needs several regens to get clean.  Seen it many times.

 

8.  Why Ford couldn't keep the PID list and restriction numbers the same between 6.4 and 6.7 pisses me off.  It would be easy to fix this in a flash- make everything the same so you don't have to memorize two sets of stuff.  Give us EGTs during Regen on a 6.4, too. I haven't played with a 3.2 yet so I don't know if the Aftertreatment PID list changed again on those.

 

9.  I have tons of captures saved to back up all of this.

[Matt Saunoras]

Did 2 cab and chassis DEF heaters since yesterday.  Now that the local stock is running low I suspect we won't see these for a while.  Also changed a SSA and SSC in a torqshift 6 for some downshift issues today.

 

Also sitting on a 6.7 long block and a 6.7 fuel system.  No parts, everything on backorder.

[YukonTyler]

- 2014 Fiesta for a clutch

- 1999 Escort for a misfire. it got kicked around the shop getting plugs and wires in the process before hitting my bay - no compression on cyl 4 and a leakdown test has it all coming out the oil fill.

- 2015 F150 for a bad heater core? maybe? heat on the right side of the cabin but nothing on the left, not dual zone climate control.

[batmantech]

 

Customer states bearing on rear drive shaft went out.   Ya think!

 

[tonybullitt]

That's pretty cool. Was it a pain in the ads to get out?

[tonybullitt]

Told this guy to put this ball mount in scrap metal bin where it belongs. My family could be behind you.

[YukonTyler]

I would have spun the ball out of the draw bar along with an offer to reinstall the ball on a replacement.

[batmantech]

The pinion pounded right out. The hanger bearing was destroyed also.

(Tony, got the bearing kit from zumbrota bearing and gear.) ZBAG

[tonybullitt]

Yeah, we use ZBAG for all customer pay ones. Really nice to have them across town if doing a pinion seal and the flange needs to be replaced we can just run and get.

[Matt Saunoras]

Had a 14 F-550 dump in here yesterday,  customer bought the truck that was previously a rental. He was complaining that occasionally the truck would not crank.  Both veh batteries tested good.  BCM had PATS key and Key in switch dtcs.  I tested both provided IKT key batteries and they tested good, around 3.1v.  I noticed the Key In Switch wasn't working properly, the chime didn't work when the door was open and key in the ignition unless I wiggled the cylinder around.  Also noticed there were 6 keys programmed for this veh even though the cust only had 3.  2 were IKT keys and one was a plain metal key

 

The plain metal key was a tip off . Pulled down the lower steering column shroud and noticed the pats transceiver was missing.  The previous owner had it and a IKT key taped together up under the dash.  That IKT had a weak battery. 

 

In the end it got a new ignition cylinder and I moved the transceiver back up to its correct location.  Changed the weak IKT battery and did an ignition key erase.  Now the Key In Switch feature works correctly and everything seems to jive once again.  The customer got an extra IKT key out of the deal 

[forddieseldoctor]

Had a 14 F-550 dump in here yesterday,  customer bought the truck that was previously a rental. He was complaining that occasionally the truck would not crank.  Both veh batteries tested good.  BCM had PATS key and Key in switch dtcs.  I tested both provided IKT key batteries and they tested good, around 3.1v.  I noticed the Key In Switch wasn't working properly, the chime didn't work when the door was open and key in the ignition unless I wiggled the cylinder around.  Also noticed there were 6 keys programmed for this veh even though the cust only had 3.  2 were IKT keys and one was a plain metal key

 

The plain metal key was a tip off . Pulled down the lower steering column shroud and noticed the pats transceiver was missing.  The previous owner had it and a IKT key taped together up under the dash.  That IKT had a weak battery. 

 

In the end it got a new ignition cylinder and I moved the transceiver back up to its correct location.  Changed the weak IKT battery and did an ignition key erase.  Now the Key In Switch feature works correctly and everything seems to jive once again.  The customer got an extra IKT key out of the deal 

 

 

That actually worked? I had a 13 or 14 expedition that had an oe remote start put in that had a pinched wire for the ring that gets stuck to the pats transceiver. I pulled the pats transciever off of the cylinder and tried to remote start it with one of the key's stuck through it and it didn't work.