RyanG Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 have an 05 with intermittent crank no start and stall. has p2291, did the air pressure test with no leaks found. 3 months ago installed updated stand pipes and dummy plugs for same issue, never heard air leaks then but found some wear on pipe O-rings. also put a new ipr in and drove it 20-30 miles with no issues. checked restart hot and cold the next day, fired right up so I shipped it. now its back with same issue. It has a little bit of a long crank, ipr is going full duty cycle but it starts. I finally got it to not start while watching icp, icp is at 1200 psi and ipr at 85% so I air checked it again and don't hear any leaks. it has updated stc fitting. I disconnected ckp sensor and pulled ficm relay, commanded ipr above 60%, cranked it and only getting 1200 psi. I have not dead headed the pump yet. I have not seen late build pump fail but im leaning towards that as the culprit. Has anyone seen the late build pumps fail or am i missing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy57 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Make sure you have no fuel in oil. I had a cracked head kick my butt. The fuel smell was not obvious to me or a few others that smell tested it. An oil change fixed the problem for about thousand miles and also the oil level increased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 You only need 500 PSI to start and your at 1200 PSI, what is the ICP voltage reading? (0.8 volts=500 PSI) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 In these situations I like to disconnect the ICP sensor and try it. If the ICP is biased, unplugging it forces the PCM to use known good values to try to start the engine, if it starts normally go after the ICP sensor or it's wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Is that ICP DESIRED or ICP ACTUAL reading? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I just finished one here. 2006 after a good drive it would long crank then start and have a low idle, sometimes no throttle response, then clear up. No codes. Noticed ICP V KOEO was 0.48 volts. replaced the sensor and it dropped to the normal 0.24 volts. Now it's starting good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanG Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 ok truck sat overnight and now will not start and did not have sync, found cam sensor and connector bad. wiggled cam sensor wire and get sync. truck has very long crank but will start. disconnected icp sensor and still have same issue, icp voltage .25 koeo. I didnt notice yesterday I had two different issues, the cam sensor connector caused the intermittent no start but did not set a code. I got that out of the way and back to the original issue. I air pressure tested again and don't hear a damn thing, not even the usual air noise from the hpop shaft seal. The ipr is new and if I don't hear any leaks im thinking the hpop is weak and dead heading it would be pointless by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlW Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I think an IDS file with all nec. PIDS of a koeo to crank & run would help Identify your problem. Can files be uploaded on this Forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 What's your ICP voltage and IPR percentage after it has started and idled for 40 minutes or so and then under snap accel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanG Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 icp voltage 0.85 idle ipr 23% idle icp snap accel. 2.1% ipr 48% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Those numbers are right on the money in my book and I would not condemn that pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2006 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Is the code repeatable? If it does, then try and do the air pressure test again. But this time, at the same time, bump the starter over a little bit at a time. I had one before that only leaked at a certain spot and air was blowing back into the oil filter housing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanG Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Im losing my mind. Drive it and get the thing hot and air test, let It sit for 20 minutes and finally hear a leak on passenger side towards front of oil rail. Put the stethoscope to it and hear the loud his at top of front 2 injectors thinking finally got it. Pull the injectors out and the top rings look ok which has me worried. put the 2 injectors in and air test, guess what still leaking. fire the thing up and let it get hot and retest, now I don't hear a leak. I leave the air hose on it awhile and its starts hissing again only its on the driver side. pull the valve cover and hear hissing real bad at the top of number 4. pull the oil rail and injector out and its an aftermarket reman the d-ring and blocker ring are moving around a little but the d ring does not look bad. throw one in and retest, still leaking only now its sound like its coming more from number 2. Ready to start beating my head against the wall. 8 injectors or oil rails? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanG Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 I ran truck with the valve cover off and can see more oil dumping on number 2 injector. Im thinking oil rails because the leaks seem to be moving every time I removed the rail. the damn things are almost 900 a piece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Yeah the rails are costly. I have never seen one bad but I picked up a core and resealed it myself just to have one around as a tester. The nipple o-rings are serviceable through Alliant Power. The last one I had leaking at #2 and #4 I was able to use a mirror to look under the rail and actually see the air bubbling out of the injector exhaust ports. I believe the injector spool valves are supposed to "park" and any air leaking here means the spools are sticking or are too worn out to hold oil pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Question: never had to get this far into a HPOP leak, knock on wood.... Where is the oil exhaust port on the injector? Can't find anything in the coffee table book or WSM. Don't have one in front of me to look at either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Those 2 little holes on the top of the injector is where the oil exhausts. When the spool valve moves to the closed position the high pressure oil flow stops and the intensifier piston return spring pushes out the oil that was used for injection out of the injector. What I don't know or understand is if the injector has a preferred position for when the engine is attempting to build enough ICP to start. I would imagine that it would be ideal if the spools were in the closed position when ICP was trying to build, that way the high pressure oil is deadheaded against the spool and can't leak in or out. (If it leaked in that means the injector would fire, if it leaked out that would be a loss of ICP) Spool valve clearance is extremely tight and I attempted to make measurements on failed injectors but was unable to get any. Excessive wear in the center part of the spool valve would cause oil pressure to be lost through the injector itself and show up as a leak at the exhaust ports. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Is that even possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbriggs Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 If it is cranking at 1200 psi, it is not an ICP problem. Can you record a screen shot of an attempted start up with all the no start pids on screen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbriggs Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Also, if it is only a long crank cold, that usually means the dummy plug orings are leaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanG Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I put the 3 injectors in and ran in with the valve cover off for awhile. It looks to me like number 2 is dumping a little more oil than the other three injectors on the bank. I let it sit overnight in the cold and went to start, still had a longer crank but nowhere near as long before replacing the injectors, figured due to air in the system. I wasn't able to drive last night to get air out. Drove this morning for 15-20 mins and let idle for an hour and shut off. Went out 15 min later and had an even shorter crank time. I think I'm chasing leaking injectors, I think theres no way in hell I have two leaking oil rails. Truck has 140k miles and inside of engine looks nice and clean. Disregard the 1200 psi while cranking, like I said earlier, I didn't notice at the time the there was an issue with the cam sensor connector causing a no start. I'm going to let it sit for awhile and see how does since I put some miles on it. This truck has all the updated stand pipes, dummy plugs and stc fitting done a few months back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Is that even possible?A buddy of mine tried to "fix" his stiction by sanding his spool valves. What he didn't know was that you're only supposed to sand the ends to remove any varnish and restore the surface. He sanded the 2 lands in the middle and ended up with a truck that would stall when hot from a lack of ICP. It is definitely possible to have a leak here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanG Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Well let it sit and it started up with a slightly longer crank. Shut it off and let it sit again and it cranks normally. I thing its the injector spool valves affecting icp it just depends on where they rest when the engine shuts off. I air pressure tested again and have no leaks, ipr is right on at 23% at idle and icp at .8 - .85. This thing had an oil cooler put on at an aftermarket shop so I'm wondering if the oil got really hot and damaged the injectors. Will see if customer wants to replace the rest of the injectors or take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I just went through all this on the last 2 hot no starts I had. It's such a pain to figure these things out sometimes even though we've been doing it for years. Anymore I feel like all the easy trucks are fixed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanG Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 I agree. This engine always finds some new way to kick my ass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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