6.4 Driving Impressions

Bruce Amacker · December 1, 2006

I was fortunate enough to spend a couple hours today driving around in a 2008 F-350 4x4 6.4 liter, courtesy of the marketing dept at FMC. First stop, pick up my escort in Dearborn at Super Duty headquarters across the street from the museum, who hands me the keys to the red 6 speed club cab 1FTWX31R68EA00099 with only 700 miles on the clock. We climb in, it fires right up and we chat while it warms up a bit. First stop, a 20 minute ride down the highway to the Livonia Trans plant to watch a 6.4 on the dyno. I talked to the dyno technician a bit, who was quite well versed in the 6.4 engine. He stated there’s been a lot less problems with this rollout than the 6.0. Some early engines had crank walk due to main thrust wear, a couple of block porosity issues, and some turbo seal problems, but those were all worked out. He said they had injector problems with 6.0 engines from the start, so their continuing injector problems weren’t much of a surprise. He said they have had NO injector problems with the 6.4, which was nice to hear. As we talked, he showed me several early prototype 6.4 engines that appeared to have seen better days. These engines showed considerable differences from the 6.4 production engine, with a larger fuel cooler, larger EGR coolers, and the same SRA servo motor as the late DT has on the BW turbo. Production units with later build dates have a different SRA servo, which I stated before, is a good thing, because this has been a high failure rate unit for IH. As they run on the trans dyno, they are constantly up and down in throttle angle, RPM, and gear to work the trans quite hard. I wasn’t allowed to take pictures in there, but I was allowed to write down PID data as it appeared on a PC monitor:

RPM 2860

FUP 123 MPA

FUP_SP 125MPA

AMP 973 HPA

CAN_bpa_psn 62%

CAN_bpawm 61%

Toil 9˚C

E gbp 4500hpa

EGBP_REL_AMP 3500HPA

EGBP_SP 3500HPA

PCV_CTL 32%

IF_SRC_TQI_SP 1

MAF 1389mg/stk

MAP_REL 1834 HPA

M F SLM 95

MF_TOT 43mg/stk

TBA 74˚C

TCO 870˚

Any help in deciphering the data is appreciated! FUP is fuel pressure, and 123MPA is about 17,500psi. AMP at 973 HPA is about 14.1 psi, which could be BARO with the rotten weather. There’s two solenoids on the HP fuel pump, but I don’t know their names or acronyms. Any Cummins/Duramax guys out there? The PCV pid is kind of confusing, because I don’t see any PCV hardware on my skid motor.

The truck ran and drove like a new truck should- smooth, quiet, very well sound insulated, and torquey as a !@*!#?!. The weather sucked today, with rain, sleet, snow, and 50-60mph winds the whole way up and back. With the roads wet, it was hard to get into the throttle more than 2/3 or the tires would break loose, even at speed- remember this truck is empty, and I didn’t put it in 4WD. It did have a bit of a surge in it that’s hard to explain- sensitivity to the throttle is the best way I can explain it, aggravated by the manual trans. They told me this truck does not have the latest flash level made to cure that surge.

I’m also told the fuel-water trap now has a nice handle on it to drain water from the fuel, which I was glad to hear. I wanted to crawl under to get a picture of it, but with the rain, I didn’t. I had my IDS with me but figured it would not communicate unless the VCM was updated for the new engine.

Next stop, I think was called POEE, or the old headquarters building where Henry’s office is still intact and sealed with a plastic door for history’s sake. Mahogany Row, it’s called, where all the top brass from the 1920’s were headquartered. There’s a spot on the wall where Henry, Edsel, and some other brass stood in 1938 and put pencil marks, like we did as kids, to compare height. (Being that this was a bit after Prohibition was repealed, I’m wondering if alcohol was involved!) People were short back then, with Henry not more than 5’5” or so.

Back to Super Duty Central, for a meet and greet, and to wrap things up and hopefully schedule another day where I can drive an auto trans model, and get a one-on-one with a calibration guy to explain the fuel system operation to me. Once again, I am impressed with Ford’s tearing down of fortress walls that have been in place for years and opening their arms to an aftermarket guy. Regarding the skid motor supplied to me, I was told the big boss said to my contact, “Will giving him an engine make this rollout easier?” “Yes.” “Then give him one.”

Is this truck going to be easy to work on? Definitely not, but with cab removal easier and much more R&D being put into this engine, I have much more faith that I did on the early 6.0.

I just wanted to share my day today with you guys.

Have a great weekend!

Keith Browning · December 2, 2006

Thank you for the report Bruce. I am sure we are all a little green with envy! You should post those pics of Henry's office in PhotoPost and slap 'em up here. I will admit to not reading your email first, I unzipped the pics and at first I thought, "WOW! Bruce is doing well!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Then I spotted the picture of Henry over the mantle and I knew what I was looking at was NOT the Amacker estate.

As for the rumor mill and what I viewed on FordStar a few weeks ago, I am confused about when production and delivery of the 2008's is to begin. The official word I got was just after New Years with a possible run before the holidays. My commercial sales director told me that our first shipment of 2008 chassis cabs is due to arrive in two weeks. That is mid-December. He did not state whether they were equipped with 6.4L engines though. Hey, wouldn't it be funny if Ford ran off a few hundred 2008 trucks with a 6.0L in them? Couldn't they do that theoretically as long as production is before December 31st?

Ain't I a stinker? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Bruce Amacker · December 2, 2006

As for the rumor mill and what I viewed on FordStar a few weeks ago, I am confused about when production and delivery of the 2008's is to begin. The official word I got was just after New Years with a possible run before the holidays. My commercial sales director told me that our first shipment of 2008 chassis cabs is due to arrive in two weeks. That is mid-December. He did not state whether they were equipped with 6.4L engines though. Hey, wouldn't it be funny if Ford ran off a few hundred 2008 trucks with a 6.0L in them? Couldn't they do that theoretically as long as production is before December 31st?

Ain't I a stinker? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

My connection says the same thing- just after the first of January for Job One. I think you're right about having them titled as the subsequent year after Jan 1. I was wondering how they got around the red one I drove yesterday with a Aug '06 build date being titled as an '08, unless it's a mfr title/truck that's going to be scrapped after testing. As for equipping them with 6.0's with an '08 title, that wouldn't surprise me a bit as they've been doing that for decades.

I was just looking harder at the shots I took at SEMA, as I crawled under that truck and took a ton of pictures, but never thought to shoot the fuel pump/HFCM (if it's still there). I don't see anything in the shots I took, but there is a drain plug on the bottom of the fuel tank- I wonder if that's what they were referring to about the water drain? Maybe it has a pump-in-tank like a gasser? I gotta find out.......

Have a great weekend!

Keith Browning · December 3, 2006

My brother who works two bays from me at the dealer just completed the CVT transmission course at the NY training center (in central NJ) where their 6.4L training engine had just arrived. Point of the post, training schedule to begin mid-January. I intend to keep an eye on STARS and enroll as soon as the courses are available. It is recommended that the earlier you enroll the better. That goes for all training by the way. Ford is jammed with transmission classes for the CVT for all of the techs/dealers that waited until the last minute to sign up... mot of which are now Senior Masters hoping to retain Senior Master status.

By the way, John Clark is our instructor in this area. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif He is well liked. I always return from his classes having learned a lot and looking to learn more.

HGM · December 3, 2006

Guys,

As far as training, dont forget the key to it is completing the web course ASAP.. I believe it becomes active on 12/15.. When you get it done, you will be able to enroll for the class.. You should begin seeing the class' scheduled as early as Monday, though you wont be able to sign up until the web class is done..

BTW, I agree, John is a really good guy /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

Cetane · December 3, 2006

The data decodes as follows:

RPM-self explanitory

FUP-Fuel Pressure

FUP_SP- Desired Fuel pressure

AMP- Ambient pressure

CAN_BPA_PSN- VGT position

CAN_BPA_PWM- PWM position of VGT

TOIL- Oil Temp

EGBP- Engine backpressure

EBGP_REL_AMP- EGBP vs ambient pressure

EGBP_SP-backpressure desired

PCV_CTL- Pressure control valve (fuel)

MAF&MAP- self explanitory

MF_SLM- mass fuel smoke limit

MF_TOT- mass fuel total

TBA- temperature of either intake or ambient( cant remember which)

TCO- coolant temp

The new solenoids on the HP pump are PCV and VCV. Pressure and Volume control valve. Hope you enjoyed Dearborn and a little taste of what we have to go through to calibrate these monsters.

eastendpowerstroke · December 8, 2006

By the way, John Clark is our instructor in this area. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif He is well liked. I always return from his classes having learned a lot and looking to learn more.

I'm glad to hear Johns doing this class I haven't seen him for years Sr Masters don't get to classes to often I used to go to Teterboro from eastern Longisland for class because I liked having John Clark as an instructor.

One of my guys was just at a suspension class in Yonkers with John he's doing his training for the class now or early Jan I belive, and was told that classes for us won't be till jan-feb. I asked him to put me in the first one in Yonkers /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif

Do you go to Philly or Yonkers Keith? Philly starts 1/16-1/18

P.S it would be real nice if Ford went out of their way to pass info on to the techs on there front line that will need to deal with these trucks FIRST long before any "Aftermarket" will in such a grand way as they have for Bruce /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smhair.gif

Keith Browning · December 8, 2006

Do you go to Philly or Yonkers Keith? Philly starts 1/16-1/18

My main training center used to be at Teterboro until it was vacated and for a while we were being sent to Yonkers. Since then Ford has set us up in Somerset NJ in the Mazda training center there. I understand that many training centers are now gone and the instructors, or what is left of them move around a lot in their zones. The last class I attended in October, I think John said he was off to Boston!

Originally Posted By: eastendpowerstroke

P.S it would be real nice if Ford went out of their way to pass info on to the techs on there front line that will need to deal with these trucks FIRST long before any "Aftermarket" will in such a grand way as they have for Bruce

From what I am hearing "we" will have training available by or at the time of the launch of the new engine - like within the next several weeks in fact. I also think I read somewhere here in the DTS forums that there will be web based training that will be available by mid-December /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif and it will be a pre-requisite to the classroom instruction. I also believe I read that this training will need to be completed by the end of 2007 too retain your diesel certification and shop competency requirements. Someone "in the know" can correct me or confirm this.

Judging by the training I have already completed with Caterpillar this should be very interesting.

HGM · December 8, 2006

Web based will be avail 12/15 and required to be completed for retaining cert no later than 3/31. However, you cannot request the class untill you complete the web class..

There will also be a Super Duty class(web) that isnt required(to my knowledge) but will explain things you will need to know...

The class will become avail in different parts of the country at differing times as the instructors get trained. You will begine seeing class' by mid Jan in some areas. The class will be manditory no later than 12/31/07 for certs..

Hope that helps /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

eastendpowerstroke · December 12, 2006

Web based will be avail 12/15 and required to be completed for retaining cert no later than 3/31. However, you cannot request the class until you complete the web class..

I'll probably do the web class 12/15 at about 9:00 pm from home then as soon as I can course request the classroom I will.

While I think it's great that guys like Bruce are getting info from official sources,ride and drives,and skid motors ect. we can't even get a web based training available to us as FORD techs until 16 days before the engine supposedly goes into production and don't get me started on classroom training some of my techs have course requests for basic classes over 1 1/2 years old, NY has 1 classroom and 1 full time instructor so how soon do ya think we'll see that diesel class.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif Glad to see Ford roll out the red carpet for somebody I just wish it was for the guys that have to fix it right the first time. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

Keith Browning · December 12, 2006

Hey, if you and I end up in the same class should I bring a bucket of cold water to cool ya down? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Look at it this way, you will have the web based training in a matter of days from now. I have noticed that most of the theory and operation is now well covered in these web based courses and the classroom instruction is mostly hands on now. The current situation is far advanced than when the 6.0L was launched.

mpatron · December 15, 2006

The data decodes as follows:

RPM-self explanitory

FUP-Fuel Pressure

FUP_SP- Desired Fuel pressure

AMP- Ambient pressure

CAN_BPA_PSN- VGT position

CAN_BPA_PWM- PWM position of VGT

TOIL- Oil Temp

EGBP- Engine backpressure

EBGP_REL_AMP- EGBP vs ambient pressure

EGBP_SP-backpressure desired

PCV_CTL- Pressure control valve (fuel)

MAF&MAP- self explanitory

MF_SLM- mass fuel smoke limit

MF_TOT- mass fuel total

TBA- temperature of either intake or ambient( cant remember which)

TCO- coolant temp

The new solenoids on the HP pump are PCV and VCV. Pressure and Volume control valve. Hope you enjoyed Dearborn and a little taste of what we have to go through to calibrate these monsters.

The PIDs on the IDS are much easier to decipher. FRT as Fuel Rail Temp, FRP as Fuel Rail Pressure, etc. It is kind of interesting that at last check, fuel pressure codes are listed as ICP codes. I am sure that will change, too. I think the earliest classes are starting on January 9th. I will back in Dearborn for another two weeks in January, and we will be teaching 72 instructors, so you should have no trouble getting classes on STARS. Then it's back to So. California and sunshine to teach our techs.