complete fuel system replacement labour time???

[the_twig_187]

a customer who bought a 2016 F-350 with a 6.7L two weeks ago, filled his fuel tank with gasoline and drove it until she quit.

 

the shop foreman diag-ed it and sold the job at 18hrs. I have never replaced the complete fuel system on 6.7 so I'm just wondering what your thoughts are?

 

job includes: 1) replacing all 8 fuel injectors

                     2) replacing HPFP

                     3) replacing both fuel rails and fuel supplies tubes

                     4) dropping the fuel tank and cleaning it out

                     5) replacing fuel filters

                     6) flushing lines from tank to the secondary fuel filter with fresh clean diesel fuel.

 

Does 18hrs sound fair for this work? not sure as I have never done this before?

 

(yes the fuel replacement kit was ordered that has all the replacement parts...why don't they include the intake manifold gaskets and various gaskets and O-rings that are clearly stated to be replaced when removed in the WSM in this kit?)

 

[mchan68]

I have replaced an entire fuel system before, a few years ago and it was a very time consuming job. If I had to do one again, I would be lifting the cab to do so, for how relatively little time it takes not to mention the access given. Don't forget to include the coolant you are going to need to drain and refill. Having said all that, 18 hours sure sounds way light.

[Brad Clayton]

When it comes to figuring out labor times, people will pay the bill no matter what it is when they know they have done something stupid. Don't short change your self on a job like this. The labor should be no less than 25 hours and can go upwards of 32 ish depending on how much time you spend on cleaning the tank and the truck is configured.

[Matt Saunoras]

I have been removing the EGR cooler and crankcase vent canister to access the injectors which has worked well so far. I do believe around 25 hours would be fair but don't be surprised if you can only get 13-15 hours warranty.

 

This is what is wrong with flat rate. Making it in 18 is doable but only after you've done a few.

[Keith Browning]

I've done 6. Not hard at all but as mentioned it takes time. The cab definitely does not need to come off which would be extreme overkill. Remove the EGR cooler and everything is easily replaced.

[the_twig_187]

So the job is complete. I did not take the cab off, I just removed the EGR cooler and the PCV box and it gives you more than enough room to do the injectors. About the only thing that would be easier with the cab off would be the upper intake manifold (but I figured out if you remove the fuel filter holding bowl the manifold comes out like butter)

 

The entire job from start to finish took me 21.5 hrs and I was able to have the service advisor bump it from 18 to 20hrs pay (I know it was my first time doing this job so I was a little bit slow but I still say 25hrs sounds about right for the amount of back bending work involved, including dropping the fuel tank and sucking it dry

[Keith Browning]

If that had been DEF contamination you would be rinsing it with water and drying the fuel tank. That takes a little longer.

[lmorris]

Here is what I charge, and I don't short myself. It has taken a couple to get in under the time allotted BTW.

 

Fuel injectors-5.3

Injection pump-6.8

Fuel filters-1.1

Fuel lines:clean-.7

Fuel tank R&R-3.3

Fuel tank:clean .7

 

Total of 17.9 hrs.

 

Those times are right out of Mitchell On-demand and with the overlap it does cover every thing.

Diagnosis is extra of course. There is a time of 1.6 for Fuel system diagnosis in Mitchell On-demand. 

[the_twig_187]

ok so 18hrs was not far off for the labour then... i would consider breaking even on my first attempt to be a success... would certainly be much quicker and would do a few things differently next time for sure.

[nelsona19]

I wouldn't do it for less than 25 myself.

[the_twig_187]

That's about the only thing I can honestly say about my shop that is one of those "deal breaker" problems, you know those problems that just eat away at you on a daily basis. We have this in house labour guide on our computers and it states the labour times for almost all jobs on all ford vehicle. We do service off make vehicles (for the city of ottawa) and they require us to use "pro demand" for our labour times. Our "in house" labour chart falls somewhere in between warrenty time and what the mitchell guide/ pro demand states. For example to change all four upper and lower ball joints on a Econoline van,

 

warranty pays (2.1 hrs)

our in house guide pays (2.9 hrs)

pro demand / Mitchell pays (4.4 hrs)

 

so were loosing 1.5 hrs on that particular job and its like that for everything. Thus we are loosing 1-2 hrs for every job over what's fair to be charged as stated by the industry standard labour guides (like the 18 hrs for the fuel system replacement when most guys say 20-25 hrs is fair). If you do the math for the year, that's a ton of hours were missing out on because of the politics of the "in house guide"

 

The shop is pretty good in all other aspects but that one particular problem frosts me when your busting your ass on a RETAIL job just to break even. I have found it very difficult to make 40 hrs a week under this system at this shop. What's even more frustrating is that I'm doing the exact same work as I was doing at another shop where I would typically make 50-60 hrs a week. The volume of work and the type of work hasn't changed, just the labour guides between the two shops.

 

To quote a man much smarter than I "I didn't build it, I didn't break it, I'm just trying to fix it" and I would like to be compensated fairly.

 

 

[mchan68]

Our toolboxes have wheels on them for a reason. Keep yours well lubricated.

[Alex Bruene]

I've done about 5 or 6 complete fuel systems.  I charge 20 hours...  I just finished one yesterday, which I started on Friday afternoon, start to finish it took me about 10 hours. 

 

As far as your example about the ball joint times, I've never followed book time for those.  I know in my mind that I can replace 4 ball joints on an Econoline in 45 minutes, so, I only charge 3 hours for them.  I can see how your "in house" time is fair in that case, IMHO.  Ball joint time in Chilton in outrageous.  To replace 4 ball joints on a 2010 F-250 4X4, it has the time at 8.3 hours...  Not a bad turn around for a 2 hour job!

[the_twig_187]

So I spoke with the service manager to find out more info about how they came up with their "in house" times. Apparently they take all the warranty times for all the jobs and they add 40% to it. It helps us stay "competitive" by having the highest labour door rate in the city but under cutting the techs on the actual hours they can charge for the job.

[Alex Bruene]

That sucks.  I come up with unpublished retail times by adding 50% to warranty times...  Which is accurate IMO, as warranty times are supposed to be 2/3 of retail.  I'd hate to see your menu pricing for maintenance and shit.  I worked at a dealership about 10 years ago that figured they had to undercut the dealership 5km down the road to get the work.  I argued it by saying all you have to do is better work than them.  Needless to say, I didn't last too long with 0.3 oil changes filling my time ticket.  I hope you get a decent hourly wage to reflect having the highest door rate and lowest labor times in the city.

[the_twig_187]

Hahahha no one makes more than the shop Forman and he makes $30 hr

[Alex Bruene]

Are they high? 

[Bruce Amacker]

If you are not being paid fairly, prepare a resume, take a day off work, and walk into several competing shops to see what they will offer you.  You're in a big city and there's a shortage of techs everywhere, certainly there are many dealers and indys that would jump at the chance to hire a good young tech. They are hiring even if they are not running help wanted ads. My utility fleets are full of ex-dealer techs, approach the electric, water dept, city, and DOT fleets, even if they are not running ads. You can find each fleet manager's info online, e-mail them a resume. When you get some offers together, approach your current mgr and have a meeting with him. State your concerns and inform him of the other offers and see what he says.  Sometimes the easiest way to get a raise is to say, "I quit". When I had my shop I paid my guys well, they had a fantastic benefits package that nobody could match, and I never had a tech leave over money.  If the info you are presenting us is correct your leaders need shop management training. 

 

You should be the most expensive shop in town, not the cheapest. If you are the cheapest you groom a clientele of bottom feeders. That means you want to work at the most expensive shop in town, not the cheapest. When I had my shop and someone called for a phone quote, I told them in no uncertain terms that I was an expensive shop and if they were looking for the cheapest price I was not it.  This saved me from doing very many phone quotes. We were also T&M rather than flat rate or book time. If I was doing a quote I took book time and added 10% for each year the truck was old (5 years old, add 50% to Chilton time). This helps cover the inevitable rust and stuck parts.

 

Good luck to you.

 

 

[lmorris]

Hahahha no one makes more than the shop Forman and he makes $30 hr

OMG... ....I can't even remember the last time I was at that wage...Has to have been at least 15 years ago. Dude..you need to fix that. Starting wage for good diesel techs around here is minimum $40 hour plus bonuses.

[Brad Clayton]

Don't move to NC.....starting pay here for a tech that knows what he's doing is around 15 bucks an hour.

[RyanG]

Damn. 40 and hour. Never heard of any dealer techs getting that much. Around here 30 is usually the highest I've seen.

[Alex Bruene]

I crossed the $40 plateau back in 2010.  I wasn't going to sell myself short.  I put a price on my time and let my bosses decide if they were going to give it to me, or if somebody else was.

[Bruce Amacker]

Don't forget half of you guys are in Canada and the dollar is weaker there compared to the US. It's getting better, though.  A couple of months ago it was $1.45 CAD for one USD, today it's 1.26 CAD for one USD. Certainly that enters into the equation.

 

Keith:  Can we put member's location on the avatars? I have to keep clicking on the avatar to see the profile  'cause I can't remember where each member lives.

 

[ktmlew]

I wish I was as good at everything as some people here claim to be. Funny how the same guy always knows what is wrong and can do the job in 1/2 the time the rest can. Channeling Pappy Jim...their are wieners out there.

[ktmlew]

Don't move to NC.....starting pay here for a tech that knows what he's doing is around 15 bucks an hour.

I was at $25 hr FR in 1999 here in the great state of Raleigh NC. Now...25. Forget about raises, paid days off, boss occasionally buying shop lunch. It's all about every bay turning 107%. Even the guy like me that magically seems to always be working when supertech has a day off and three of his comebacks roll in. Primadonnas piss me off.