6.4L FUEL SYSTEM. LABOUR TIME

[Larryforce]

Good morning everyone.  I am working on a 6.4 no start with a p2291 and a p0088.  I believe i have a hpfp failure.  i found some metel flakes in a fuel sample taken from the fuel cooler scrader valve, and found a small amount of rust in the secondary filter housing. based on these findings would you recommend the complete fuel system, or should i quote the customer 4 hours of labour to remove the valve covers and performed the fuel system debris test in the wsm?

what is a fair labour time for a complete fuel system replacement on a 6.4, I,am not really confident/familiar with the 6.4, and am not sure how much additional time it would take to change every thing as opposed to just the pump.  

thanks in advance

 

[Larryforce]

I just found an older post about the labour time. 28 hours sound about right? 

Would you pull the valve covers and injector supply tubes on cyl 1 and 2, or look for contaminates while removing the pump, or would the metal flakes at the fuel cooler be enough to call a complete system

[KDS]

I would feel more comfortable replacing the fuel system.

If you've got metal in the return flow, It's gone out the delivery too.

Plus....... It's a 6.4, It's just lookin' for a place to die.

 

Have you run a R/C test?

[forddieseldoctor]

1 hour ago, KDS said:

I would feel more comfortable replacing the fuel system.

If you've got metal in the return flow, It's gone out the delivery too.

Plus....... It's a 6.4, It's just lookin' for a place to die.

 

Have you run a R/C test?

 

I agree. Metal in the cooler is enough to condem the system. I usually pull the cooler off, cap the coolant ports tightly and then dump the cooler into a clean black container when I wanna have a look for metal. 

[Larryforce]

2 hours ago, KDS said:

I would feel more comfortable replacing the fuel system.

If you've got metal in the return flow, It's gone out the delivery too.

Plus....... It's a 6.4, It's just lookin' for a place to die.

 

Have you run a R/C test?

Sorry r/c test?  I'm not sure what that is. 

Oh, took me a min.  Relative compression,. It showed low on 1,2. Pulled the glow plugs on those cylinders and got 380ish psi with a manual gauge. 

The diesel tech at our sister dealership figured the poor relative compression might be due to fuel washed cylinders. 

 

[KDS]

WOW!

I wouldn't be in a hurry to toss a fuel system at that one.

I'd want to be sure the base engine was alright.

I guess I'd start with a bore scope.

[Keith Browning]

I have news for you - unless it's a valve train issue those cylinders are not coming back.

[Larryforce]

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate the insight.

I want to do what's best for the customer. I did  perform a manual compression test on the 2 failed cylinders, which passed. 

Anything in particular I should be looking for?   Guessing I should pull all the glow plugs and test all cylinders and look at the cylinders with a bore scope.  

I  trying to wrap my head around why I am getting different results on r/c vs manual compression.  Is it possible IDS flagged the wrong cylinders? Anything else I should look out for? 

I got thrown in to this position at work a few months ago, and sometimes feel I'm in over my head,. But you guys and this website in general has been a great help.  

 

[KDS]

How does It sound cranking, 

Smooth or erratic?

Your RPM is good.

I've seen some that were low, But not that low.

[Bruce Amacker]

1. Prep the cust for bad news.

2. Do a manual compression test on all 8, and anything that isn't even, do twice.

Chances are that's as far as you'll get.

 

Sometimes the RC test shows different numbers cold vs. warm, and your cranking RPM is a bit low, usually you see 245 on a warm 6.4, your picture above shows 216. Put a charger on it to keep the RPM consistent while you do the manual test.  What's your altitude?  That affects the compression number. 

 

CYA, when these things bite, they bite hard.

Good Luck!

[Larryforce]

Cranking sounds pretty smooth. We are at about 3400' above sea level. 

Customer was towing a heavy trailer, lost all power and died, would not restart, all my testing on it has been cold. 

i will charge up the batteries today( i wont have time to touch it untill tomorrow anyway) and perform a full relative compression test on it tomorow

thanks for all the advice.  I will keep you informed. 

 

[Alex Bruene]

My 6.4 policy is, unless it's super low mileage, if it hasn't had an enhanced block installed, I always recommend against spending any substantial amount of money on a time-bomb.

[Larryforce]

So it took me a while, but i performed that manual compression test today, cylinder 8 is down around 280 psi, and that cylinder is spitting out fuel every crank, even with the key off.

According to the wsm it wants me to install an injector. Would you just swap injectors and see if compression comes back?  

if it starts and runs with a new injector(assuming compression is ok, it still has metal flakes from the fuel cooler, do I still quote out a fuel system?

[forddieseldoctor]

The metal in the fuel system is more than likely what caused to injector to fail in that way. And I know from previous experiances that if you replace only the one injector it will be back with other misfires. 

[Larryforce]

Shop foreman had me oil cylinder 8 with a few drops, cranked it a couple of times reinstalled compression tester got 390 psi. So it appears to have good compression on all cylinders. 

I think he is trying to get his insurance company to pay for a fuel system. 

I appreciate everyone's help, i didn't feel very good about a fuel system with the poor relative compression.  

If some of my questions seem elementary i apologize, i will get the hang of this one day.

 

[mchan68]

If you have access to a borescope, I would see if you could get a good look at cylinder #8 piston with the glow plug and/or injector removed. If there's any visible piston damage, well you know you're going deeper.

I had one truck a few years back with cylinder #8 piston damaged, and put a nice gouge on the cylinder wall. The connecting rod was 'S' shaped. Amazingly enough, this engine ran relatively well all things considered. I believe it was Keith who mentioned awhile back how amazing it is, the PCM is capable of masking serious internal issues with these engines.

I just did an oil change on one a couple weeks back with a couple of needle bearings stuck to the drain plug magnet.

[Larryforce]

Just wanted to add an update for this truck;

I inspected the pistons and found no traces of damage, but was still nervous/hesitant about quoting a 14k repair on a broke 6.4.( should have taken Alex's advise and ordered and enhanced long block  ).  But we talked to our customer and he was ok with taking the risk( plus his insurance company was willing to pay for the fuel system). 

I got it back together yesterday and it is currently running really well. the customer is happy, and i was quite relieved when the relative compression and power balance tests passed. 

 

thanks again for the help and advise. 

[Keith Browning]

How did the cylinder walls look? Were any washed to a mirror like shine?

[Larryforce]

honestly, i didnt get much of a look. Our bore scope wouldn't fit through the injector/glow plug

openings. We ended up holding the bore scope at tne glow plug opening shining a flashlight through the injector opening and rotating the engine till the piston came in to focus,not very clearly, but enough to tell it was basically the right size and shape  . I dont think I would have been able to see any fine cracks. 

its definitely time for a bore scope upgrade

[2006]

If your doing a fuel system on a 6.4, whats the best way to flush out the cylinder head fuel passages? 

The service manual says to flush clean fuel through it with a suction gun. But I don't know how clean that will get...

[forddieseldoctor]

I bought the fitting the book says to use and one of those large plastic suction guns. The first one I did the shop bought a brand new metal suction gun from napa and the third or fourth time I filled it I got sprayed with fuel. 

 

https://www.jbtoolsales.com/mityvac-mva6851-fluid-extractor/

 

[Larryforce]

I didnt have access to the fitting, but used a plastic suction gun and put a tapered rubber tip on the end.  Aside from the fact that this set up required a third hand, it worked great.

 

[forddieseldoctor]

2 hours ago, Larryforce said:

I didnt have access to the fitting, but used a plastic suction gun and put a tapered rubber tip on the end.  Aside from the fact that this set up required a third hand, it worked great.

 

I’m kinda spoiled in that way. I got a friend who builds hydralic hoses and has a very large fitting inventory.