6.4L Training Tips & Pointers

[Keith Browning]

Okay, I have completed the 6.4L classroom training and I thought I would share some of my notes and observations. If you don't attend the training any time soon you will appreciate this and anyone that has something to add please do! SOME OF THESE ITEMS ARE NOT IN ANY MANUALS OR TRAINING MEDIA:

 

 

• The EGR valve makes a high pitched humming noise with the key on, engine off. (On edit: This was on our training vehicle, have yet to hear it at the dealer.)

   

• When removing the glow plugs in the 6.4L, USE the sleeve tool (303-1265) to prevent dropping the glow plugs into the cylinder head. If you drop one, the valve cover will have to come off to retrieve it. (On edit: Better explanation below)

   

• If you are installing the High Pressure Fuel Pump gear, make note that there is a very slight taper and the gear only goes on one way. REFERENCE THE SHOP MANUAL for proper orientation or the gear will be damaged. You will also need a torque adapter from Snap-On, tool # FRDHM15 to torque the fastener.

   

• The ECM will de-rate the engine (reduce power) if the fuel temperature sensor (FTS) reads 194ºF or higher. The same may occur if other temperature sensors indicate high engine temperatures.

   

• If you are monitoring the EGRT_A PID while the engine is cold the value will read 140ºF until the EGR Temperature exceeds that reading. Don't let that fool you if you are diagnosing the EGR system.

   

• The fuel injectors work on 80 Volts DC with 200 Volts flyback voltage.

   

• Think GREEN. What are fuel supply banjo bolts with check valves on the 6.0L are now fuel return line banjo bolts WITHOUT check valves. The 6.4L banjo bolts are identified with green paint. Good to remember when ordering parts! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

   

• Think GREEN again. The glow plugs on the 6.4L are physically similar to 6.0L glow plugs. The 6.4L glow plugs are identified by a green stripe and pull 5 Amps where the 6.0L glow plugs are identified by a black stripe and pull 10 Amps. They are not interchangeable!!!

   

   

• While the 6.0L was more about pressures, the 6.4L is more about TEMPERATURES as there are so many temp sensors on the engine and exhaust after treatment systems. The exhaust temperature sensors are different than the other sensors. Most temp sensors are "thermistors" and as the temperature increases, the voltage signal decreases. The exhaust temp sensors are called "Resistance Temperature Detectors" or RTDs. RTD signals increase voltage as temperature increases. This is something to remember when reading PIDs. I discovered a potential for confusion! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

 

Below is a picture of two metal exhaust hose tips. Apparently, using rubber hoses right on the tip causes them to burn and stink up the shop. I don't have a tool number or manufacturer to recommend but this looked like something your shop will be better off having!

 

 

I took a picture of the EGR valve puller so I would remember how to assemble the nine pieces that make the tool work. It is definitely a contraption but it works. Using a pry-bar on this valve will likely cause damage but I am sure someone is going to find an alternate method. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

 

 

The instructor showed us this nut that retains the screw shaft in the EGR puller. You will see it when you look at the tool. Before using the puller, remove the nut, apply thread locker to the threads and reinstall the nut before using it. Apparently the nut will back off during the first use... happened to him in the instructor training and then at the training center.

 

Sorry about the quality of the pictures... apparently cell phone cameras don't take great pictures. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif

[DamageINC]

Hehe you beat me to most of this, I was gonna put something together after I finish my class tomorrow.

 

I wonder about putting a small bead on the nut for the EGR valve puller, though. I know that there is an updated nut on the way for the puller...

 

It's also important to know that the installation of the turbocharger assembly is VERY critical when it comes to properly lining up the oil drain tubes, primarily the high-pressure turbo. This is a very tricky manuver without the aid of a crane, and has a very high potential to !@#!?$!/bunk up the seal for the high pressure turbo if not done smoothly.

 

Dave

[Northman]

I think you hit on most of the key items of interest. After attending this class and playing with the engine in and out of the truck. I think the 6.4 is gonna be much easier to deal with than the 6.0 . They addressed the concerns the 6.0 was troubled with sure it will have it's own issues but it seems like a more "Robust" design especially the VTG (formerly VGT).

 

I agree with your assessment that temps are gonna be the critical area. As well as being less tolerant of non-WSM reading techs or the untrained.

 

was also told it takes longer to drain the coolant than to pull the cab.

[Scott B]

Okay, I have completed the 6.4L classroom training and I thought I would share some of my notes and observations. If you don't attend the training any time soon you will appreciate this and anyone that has something to add please do! SOME OF THESE ITEMS ARE NOT IN ANY MANUALS OR TRAINING MEDIA:

 

 

• The EGR valve makes a high pitched humming noise with the key on, engine off. This is normal.

   

• When removing the glow plugs in the 6.4L, USE the sleeve tool (303-1265) to prevent dropping the glow plugs into the cylinder head. If you drop one, the valve cover will have to come off to retrieve it.

   

• If you are installing the High Pressure Fuel Pump gear, make note that there is a very slight taper and the gear only goes on one way. REFERENCE THE SHOP MANUAL for proper orientation or the gear will be damaged. You will also need a torque adapter from Snap-On, tool # FRDHM15 to torque the fastener.

   

• The ECM will de-rate the engine (reduce power) if the fuel temperature sensor (FTS) reads 194ºF or higher. The same may occur if other temperature sensors indicate high engine temperatures.

   

• If you are monitoring the EGRT_A PID while the engine is cold the value will read 140ºF until the EGR Temperature exceeds that reading. Don't let that fool you if you are diagnosing the EGR system.

   

• The fuel injectors work on 80 Volts DC with 200 Volts flyback voltage.

   

• Think GREEN. What are fuel supply banjo bolts with check valves on the 6.0L are now fuel return line banjo bolts WITHOUT check valves. The 6.4L banjo bolts are identified with green paint. Good to remember when ordering parts! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

   

• Think GREEN again. The glow plugs on the 6.4L are physically similar to 6.0L glow plugs. The 6.4L glow plugs are identified by a green stripe and pull 5 Amps where the 6.0L glow plugs are identified by a black stripe and pull 10 Amps. They are not interchangeable!!!

   

   

• While the 6.0L was more about pressures, the 6.4L is more about TEMPERATURES as there are so many temp sensors on the engine and exhaust after treatment systems. The exhaust temperature sensors are different than the other sensors. Most temp sensors are "thermistors" and as the temperature increases, the voltage signal decreases. The exhaust temp sensors are called "Resistance Temperature Detectors" or RTDs. RTD signals increase voltage as temperature increases. This is something to remember when reading PIDs. I discovered a potential for confusion! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

 

Below is a picture of two metal exhaust hose tips. Apparently, using rubber hoses right on the tip causes them to burn and stink up the shop. I don't have a tool number or manufacturer to recommend but this looked like something your shop will be better off having!

 

 

I took a picture of the EGR valve puller so I would remember how to assemble the nine pieces that make the tool work. It is definitely a contraption but it works. Using a pry-bar on this valve will likely cause damage but I am sure someone is going to find an alternate method. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

 

 

The instructor showed us this nut that retains the screw shaft in the EGR puller. You will see it when you look at the tool. Before using the puller, remove the nut, apply thread locker to the threads and reinstall the nut before using it. Apparently the nut will back off during the first use... happened to him in the instructor training and then at the training center.

 

Sorry about the quality of the pictures... apparently cell phone cameras don't take great pictures. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif

I recognize that tool.We just got the MAXXFORCE 7(as International has now Crowned there engines designations)tools in at work.And I was going through one of the cases and the EGR puller caught my eye as it was the Largest thing in the friggen case LOL!.Well at least we will only have ONE turbo to clean........

[Keith Browning]

was also told it takes longer to drain the coolant than to pull the cab.

 

Did you take note of the size of the radiator! That thing is HUGE!!! When they said they increased the cooling capacity they weren't kidding.

[DamageINC]

Yeah, I saw the radiator and just laughed it's sheer magnitute. It's enormous.

 

To be honest, I feel like the 6.4 is going to be relatively problem-free... but that is only if the customer uses good quality fuels. Fuel quality on this engine is even more important than it was on the 6.0, and we all know that it's hard to find good diesel fuels out here in the US. Especially out by us in the midwest, where the average Cetane rating of diesel fuel out of the pump is around 38-40.

 

Dave

[eastendpowerstroke]

Also the Fuel cooling system pump runs at all times with the key on and can run up to 10 min after the key is off if necessary.

 

The high pressure fuel pump gear retaining bolt is left hand thread.

 

The M.O.E.(marvel of engineering) to remove the EGR valve has two "jaws" that are labeled L + R from standing in front of the engine not L= drivers side R= pass side.

 

If you loosen a fuel line anyware on the hige pressure side IT MUST BE REPLACED!!!

 

Most of the fastners used on the engine are one time use and must be replaced.

[DieselD]

a water pump that pumps 125gpm....impressive!

[mpatron]

The fuel/turbo actuator coolant pump is only supposed to run if the fuel gets over 77 degrees. I could have sworn there was a PID for it...Also, there are supposed to be "engine derate" strategies for fuel, oil, coolant, exhaust,and turbo actuator over-temperature conditions. It would be nice if you could find those values in print. Fuel over 194F is the only one I have. The glow plug installer prevents you from installing the glow plug into the oil drain hole by mistake.

[Keith Browning]

The fuel/turbo actuator coolant pump is only supposed to run if the fuel gets over 77 degrees.

Found more notes in my student guide:

 

The ECM

(1)turns on the coolant pump at 77 degrees

(2)turns it off at 68 degrees

(3)steps up fan at 151 degrees and

(4)derates engine at 194 degrees.

 

Feel free to correct me if this is wrong, havent seen the OBDII Theory & Operation for this engine yet either

[Diesel Jay]

Here's an interesting "gotcha." DTC P0234 is related to an overboost condition. The parameters to set this is pressure above 4050hPA for greater than 5 seconds. 4050hPA is just shy of 59psi.

 

But...the PID on the scan tool only goes up to ~44-45psi. Who thought that one up? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

[eastendpowerstroke]

I didn't see that it turns on and off.

the truck in class had something running at all times with the key on?

[HGM]

EGR and EGRTP always buzz with the key on, thats probably what you were hearing..

[Jim Warman]

Jay, you should be able to increase the display range of the PID (on the IDS, at least....) - remember the guy programming the scan tool probbaly doesn't even know where the hood release is....

 

I hope I'm not preaching to the choir, here....

 

Highlight the PID like as if you are going to go to active commands..... on the right side of the screen will be 3 display property icons - pick the top one and a window will pop up allowing you to adjust the high and low range for that display.

 

I find this particularly useful if I'm looking for more detail in a trace. Switching a PID to digital (yes/no, on/off or numerical), graph, bar graph or histogram can also help.

 

Hope I didn't hijack the thread....

[2003EDGE]

Yeah, I have been going through the cases of tools that IH has been sending the shop. That EGR puller is one heck of a contraption! I have ordered my own 365 and 275 service kits and will be ordering the new 6.4 stuff as soon as I can afford it. My wallet is still healing from the 6 grand that I dropped on the last go round with the IH tool website lol

[mpatron]

I know Brett from the Hotline was asking the IDS guy (forget his name)to open up some of the parameters. Like the rest of us, he is probably going to learn even more about any idiosyncracies this thing's got as time goes on. The OBDII book was still being readied to be posted on Motorcraftservice.com last I looked.

[Diesel Jay]

Jay, you should be able to increase the display range of the PID (on the IDS, at least....) - remember the guy programming the scan tool probbaly doesn't even know where the hood release is....

 

I hope I'm not preaching to the choir, here....

 

Highlight the PID like as if you are going to go to active commands..... on the right side of the screen will be 3 display property icons - pick the top one and a window will pop up allowing you to adjust the high and low range for that display.

 

I find this particularly useful if I'm looking for more detail in a trace. Switching a PID to digital (yes/no, on/off or numerical), graph, bar graph or histogram can also help.

Jim:

 

The IDS trick to adjust the range only works if only works if IDS is restricting the range that is broadcast from the PCM.

 

However, in this case, IDS isn't the restricting factor. The PCM is restricted to transmitting only 8-bits of information for the PID value. That's equivalent to 2^8, or 1023 steps. To transmit values above 3 bar, or about ~44-45 psi, the PCM would need enough space to transmit the value as a Word or Double Word.

 

So, IDS will never see a PID value above ~44-45 psi, since the PCM can't transmit a value above that. The PCM actually uses 16 or 32-bit info for fault detection, but can't transmit anything bigger than 8-bit.

 

Ingenius, huh?

 

- Jay

[DamageINC]

NERD!!!!!

 

Actually that's some good info though, I'll seriously put that away somewhere. God only knows when it may come in helpful /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Dave

[Diesel Jay]

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

I only noted it as an example of one of those cases where a tech is at a permanent disdvantage. An owner might report a fault for which you don't have anyway of testing/verifying because someone at Ford/Nav figured that 8-bits is "sufficient" to transmit all diagnostic data. It isn't, and that makes a tech's already difficult job even harder.

 

- Jay

[Keith Browning]

Quote:

The PCM actually uses 16 or 32-bit info for fault detection, but can't transmit anything bigger than 8-bit.

So, what affect on memory and processing power would transmitting in 32-bit have? You have to remember also that when it comes to production vehicles, cost is a big factor and more capable processors would cost more money. We could list many things that have been eliminated from these trucks or that have been made, quite frankly, really crappy. I am for one, all for better data when it comes to diagnosis. Your opinion Jay? do you think it would REALLY be to our advantage??? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif

[DamageINC]

Yeah, but it's not like these Powerstrokes are wallet-friendly to begin with. A customer would very unlikely turn down a truck because it cost a couple hundred more than he expected due to an improvement in processor technology. And honestly - how often do you see PCM's go bad?? Yeah, it happens... but not nearly frequently enough to warrant complaining about replacement costs.

 

I'm sure Ford would be much happier replacing a few $500 PCM's each month, than they would be replacing a thousand $150 Liftgate Modules ('03/04 Navigators) every couple weeks.

 

Dave

[Diesel Jay]

The ECM can pretty much transmit any length of data that it wants.

 

The problem here is that Ford/Nav is trying to be mindful of the SAE's CAN standards, and the aftermarket scanner market. SAE dictates that 8-bit accuracy has sufficient range and resolution for this fault, so the tools expect 8-bit data.

 

The problem is that the engine uses a TON of boost, and they've set the overboost parameter above the range that can be transmitted to the scan tool. Manufacturers are allowed to create their own codes with whatever resolution they want, but that means aftermarket products won't know what to do with the data.

 

Given all the turbo troubles on the 6.0L, I was surprised that Ford/Nav didn't beef up this aspect of their diagnostics.

[Bruce Amacker]

Given all the turbo troubles on the 6.0L, I was surprised that Ford/Nav didn't beef up this aspect of their diagnostics.

They dumped the Garrett turbo instead, in favor of the Borg Warner VGT that IH has been using for 4 years.

 

Regarding the Garrett: There is an extra female hex plug on top of the turbo, which Garrett intended to use for a rack sensor. Later Duramax engines use the Garrett VGT, with the rack sensor. I wish Ford (and IH) had come to the realization that they need a positive feedback device like a rack sensor on the VGT, and installed one. This would have simplified diagnostics by having a pure closed loop system on the VGT- it is commanded to a certain position, and the rack sensor says it achieved this position. Very simple. I was even thinking if Ford could sacrifice an existing sensor, add a short extension harness, install a rack sensor, and reprogram to a new level. If so, what existing sensor would you dump? EBP? MAF? I think a rack sensor would outweigh either of those.

 

Ohhhhhh, to dreammmmmmm......

[Diesel Jay]

They dumped the Garrett turbo instead, in favor of the Borg Warner VGT that IH has been using for 4 years.

Yep. Unfortunately, Nav has a fairly poor understanding of how to control it.

 

Quote:

Regarding the Garrett: There is an extra female hex plug on top of the turbo, which Garrett intended to use for a rack sensor. Later Duramax engines use the Garrett VGT, with the rack sensor. I wish Ford (and IH) had come to the realization that they need a positive feedback device like a rack sensor on the VGT, and installed one. This would have simplified diagnostics by having a pure closed loop system on the VGT- it is commanded to a certain position, and the rack sensor says it achieved this position. Very simple. I was even thinking if Ford could sacrifice an existing sensor, add a short extension harness, install a rack sensor, and reprogram to a new level. If so, what existing sensor would you dump? EBP? MAF? I think a rack sensor would outweigh either of those.

 

Ohhhhhh, to dreammmmmmm......

Yep. One of my Nav engineer friends started drooling when he saw my LBZ Duramax with a position sensor on the turbo. Problem is that 6.0L would require a different ECM processor to work with it, much like it would if they tried to retrofit a beefier EGR valve on the engine.

 

- Jay

[mpatron]

Now I get why the engineer insisted on calling it an Intake Throttle Valve every time we said EGR throttle. It only seems to become active when the DPF Status PID reads "active". Also just found out the "coffe table book" alludes to this. I finally got a recording of Regen in my classroom. EGR closes and EGRTP PID becomes active. Stepping on the brake to put it in Drive brings the RPM back down, but does not stop the Regen. I guess renaming the PID would have been a programming hassle. Just like P2291 is still "ICP low"