Keith Browning Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 I need professional opinions - preferably from "insiders" concerning these products. Possible bad effects, good effects, Fords official stand on them. I have a BG product demonstration coming today. I am not a believer. Anybody have any suggestions for questions I could ask? Am I a jerk for thinking this is potentially bad for these engines, a waste of money and lacking in professional integrity? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whattodo.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 It's been a lot of years since I was last subject to one of these smoke and mirror shows.... sorry, I meant product demos.... In the 70's, I worked for a dealer that started using Wynns Xtend products... no flushing machines back then, but this stuff was added to customers vehicles without their consent.... if they complained, they didn't have to pay for it... Some marketing startegy.... I don't think this stuff can hurt a vehicle, but neither does it do anything "for" a vehicle, either. As for any trick questions, all of the reps I have seen are well schooled in "if you can't blind them with brilliance, then baffle them with BS"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Jay Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Every engineer that I know at Nav, Dmax and CAT frowns upon any sort of fuel and/or oil supplements. They don't design the engines around anything other than commerically available fuel & lubes, nor do they test any of these aftermarket products. So, there are no assurances that they won't do any harm -- short term or long term. One engineer noted something that made a lot of sense to me -- if the refineries could put something in the fuel that decreased wear, or improved mileage or, <<insert snake oil salesman claims here>> why wouldn't they? It would cost them pennies per gallon for the volume they'd buy, and they could either jack up the price to cover it or market it as a special/premium product. So what keeps them from doing that? The answer is that, basically, any benefits to using these additives are dubious at best, and might be potentially harmful. In any event, I'd be sure to ask the rep about how the products mesh with the new '07 diesel injection and emissions systems. Will it alter the oil chemistry, and if so, in what way? Have they submitted anything to the oil companies to confirm compatibility? Has it been tested with the brand new Siemens injection system that no one up until Ford has used? If so, over how many miles? What happens to the products when they hit the DPF since, remember, raw fuel gets dumped into the exhaust now? Do they have any independent studies to back up the claims? Remind him that these are now $50K+ trucks that we're messing with, so just dumping gunk in the fuel tank could produce some expensive repair bills for the owner. Will Ford/GM/Dodge warrant all fuel system repairs if their products are found in the fuel? Etc... Honestly, I don't think you'll get anything but "slick" answers. But, if they're really above board and can provide independent studies/data, that gives us all something to evaluate. However, I wouldn't bet on anything of that nature being offered up. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif - Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 4, 2007 Author Share Posted April 4, 2007 Well, the Dog and Pony show just left. Nothing but unnecessary crap in a can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 So do you feel like you just were in a real live Infomercial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 No, I did not. I felt like a prisoner held against my will. Tied up two of my team's lifts for three hours and killed all productivity for the afternoon. First was a demonstration for a trans fluid exchanger that we are not buying. On top of it, they dragged the car techs and techs from the other car lines over... to see how to service a diesel truck... which none of them will ever do... it was no different than the machines we already use. The diesel flush. Crap in a can. The engine stalled three times and the flush canister leaked. The guy demonstrating the product told us nothing the bottle already had. I began asking questions but the answers were the same thing he had just said. So I asked ME: "What does this stuff actually clean? Does it clean the injector?" BG GUY: "It cleans everywhere the chemical touches. It removes carbon." ME: "carbon? If there is carbon inside the injector then there is a problem!" A flush won't fix that! BG GUY: "It cleans the injector tip and the combustion chamber. And for additional cleaning, you add this bottle to the fuel tank." ME: "So it doesn't clean the injector really, does it? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif How does it remove carbon?" BG GUY: "It works with the fuel but most of it does not burn. It combines with the carbon, softens it, turns it into a liquid and then vaporizes it so that it can be burnt off." /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif I was going to ask more questions including the ones Jay listed... I just couldn't after that. Bastard wasted two hours of my day and never looked me in the eye! They talk so fast you almost cant get a word in edgewise. We are talking about diesel engines here. With all of the repairs I have made to these engines I have yet to see a carbon problem in the cylinders deeming this crap as not required and if I had to guess, not effective. This gets better! Next month I might get to play around with the new EGR valve and port flusher. I can hardly contain myself. Guess where all the cleaner and the carbon goes? Any takers? They tried it on VW's and discovered that if the engine starts clacking you have to shut off the flush and wait for it to quiet down to continue. I swear, I am not making this up. I was also told that FORD was helping them develop this. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cover.gif Since we pretty much know that more than half of all diesel owners perform their own maintenance, I just got an idea for an new poll to go on the DTS Main Page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastendpowerstroke Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 it just so happens that I had a can of BG CF5 "carbon fighter" floating around so last week I had a friends truck in with a blown HG (6.0L) so I had pulled the EGR to check the cooler before I shot from the hip and did the HG's the valve was carboned up pretty good, since the cooler checked out I was into a HG job so I stuck the CARBONED UP EGR valve in a can of the "CARBON FIGHTER" that will "remove carbon deposits" while I did the HG's. after two days it did a great of making the carbon wet the same results could have been had with a glass of water or my coffee I never get to finish. so after I dug the wet carbon out with a screwdriver, carb cleaner,wire brush I reinstalled it. when I asked the BG guy he said " DIESEL CARBON IS NOT THE SAME AS GASOLINE CARBON AND THE CF5 IS FOR GAS ENGINES " As I have said it's just a wallet flush for the customer please see my last rant on the subject BG Rant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Kaylor Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Diesel flush packs-worthless, IMO. the 44k is the exact same as the gas 44k, but just in a different carrier. Trans flush kits-work damn good, especially on older mopars and 5r55's/4r100's with a shudder on the 2-3 or 3-4. granted, i dont use their fluid or chem packs on all exchanges i do (note i didnt say flush. the way their machine works, there is no pressure, which is one reason i dont like some other machines, they can do damage) their fluid is a good synthetic multigrade fluid, and they stand behind the compatability, unlike other manufacturers. the bad thing is that its not compatible with Mercon SP, which means if you do need to do an exchange on one of them units, its gonna co$t some buck$! EGR service-if the ports arent completely stopped up, this thing is badass. i love it on mod engines, hook it up and let it run, you dont have to pull the throttle body or the elbow to clean that dang trough. fuel induction system cleaner-works well, although i have found if you run GM top engine cleaner through the atomizer, it REALLY does a damn good job of getting rid of carbon! the 44k is some good stuff, i use it like i use Stanadyne on diagnosing a diesel fuel issue. fuel rail cleaner-if you have the induction cleaner, you can get an adaptor to run their rail cleaner through it and clean the injector with pressurized cleaner. i guess they finally figured out that the atomizer can have other uses (i use it to bring in a vehicle with a dead fuel pump. fill it with gas, hook an airtank to the cylinder, clamp the return line, and hook to the rail. works better than pushin it!) cooling system flushes-joke, only reason i did them was their cleaner worked well on getting rid of scale. FrigiFresh-excellent for getting rid of musty odors in the HVAC system. SynchroShift fluid-again, damn good for making a notchy tranny smoother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 EGR service-if the ports arent completely stopped up, this thing is badass. i love it on mod engines, hook it up and let it run, you dont have to pull the throttle body or the elbow to clean that dang trough. Gas or diesel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Kaylor Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Gas-sorry, i meant to clarify that. i dont see how it will work on a diesel, cause that is some NASTY stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickBaker Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 IMO BG is worthless. Their transmission flush machine works pretty well though. The Ford store I was formerly employed with believed BG was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I believe the biggest problem with BG products is that it opens the door for dishonesty, possibly as much as the flat rate system does. Customers end up getting sold a lot of services they don't need and management turns a blind eye to it due to the money being made. The only thing that had BG stamped on it that I felt was worthwhile was the trans machine. Emphasis on machine and not chemical. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/popcorn.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Don't suppose you worked at Wakefield Ford? I was their diesel tech from Jan of 02 to summer of 03. Guess I left at about the right time? Last I heard they were about to fold as they had "flushed" all the business away. Had the opportunity to go back to work there last summer but decided I didn't want to get back into that rat race...to damn much traffic for me. I agree that most of the above is a wallet flush except for the BG trans & PS machine. It was mentioned to me at an interview earlier this week that if we maintained cars 25-30 years ago like we do now they probably would have lasted twice as long. When I was growing up at my dads little car lot we regularly junked cars with over 75K miles if the trans was bad. The engines wouldn't make it much past 110K, so? Most anything you buy now, if you do a 30K every 30K, will last 300K with no problem. The idea is to get the cars IN the bay BEFORE they blow up due to whatever fluid is leaking...this is how Toyota & Honda are kicking the US maufactures bootie as they train the buyers to keep coming back even when the car has over 100K on it. If you get the cars "serviced" regularly you will usually avoid the major wallet killing repairs plus the manufacturer may help with the cost of a major failure for a regular customer. Know for a fact Toyota will. So is a brake fluid flush a rip-off? If sold to "fix' a check engine light yes...but what about when fixing an ABS problem and the vehicle has 70K on the clock and the fluid looks like 3 day old coffee? Where is the "line"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 6, 2007 Author Share Posted April 6, 2007 So is a brake fluid flush a rip-off? If I recall, the official stand on that from Ford is to change the brake fluid every two years. I learned this during the STST brake course at the Ford training center. I asked why this is not in the service manual or service publications? The instructor just shrugged his shoulders! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif But this is the recommendation. I have seen the brake flush machine in action and it works just dandy! Never used it though. Thought about using it on my own cars... but who has time to work on their own stuff? I just bought the wife a Freestyle and I vow to maintain it and her old Explorer I just inherited in a much more regular fashion. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Anybody catch the new poll on the DTS Mainpage ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickBaker Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 I'll admit the brake flush is a nice machine but I have also seen BG's brake fluid cause the brake light to come on in early to mid 90's model F-150. Overall I believe the drawbacks far outweigh the benefits of any aftermarket flushes. I also firmly believe that berrating customers with an estimate for several hundred dollars worth of services will drive them away. And this is what generally happens when the flush queens go un-checked. Case in point, I was speaking with a customer this afternoon at work and he began talking about his F 150. and how he would never go back to the Ford dealer.(Not knowing I formerly worked there.) His reason was that every time he took it there for a check engine light he ended up with a bill of $500-$600 for a $80 sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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