Flies... in Canada at least...

[Keith Browning]

I guess I have to ask now, who among us is a member of a trade union? What are your thoughts on this discussion? Is there more to a union than some of us may be aware of and what are the benefits and what are the drawbacks?

[Alex Bruene]

Lurking around on the ProTech message board, seems like techs (some new, and some quite seasoned) are dropping from the Ford dealer scene like flies. What gives?

[zx5chris]

Who's afraid of the big bag 6.4 wolf!

[Jim Warman]

Alex, I think there may be several possible things making guys leave the dealer scene....

 

Flat rate and the stunted SLTs probably are a big one... A tech fresh out of a dealership is quite a catch for an indy shop since he will be taking a lot of intellectual property with him.

 

Another reason is that each leap in technology will strain some more of the lesser genes out of the pool. Most of the guys that I apprenticed alongside of became dinosaurs... never quite able to grasp electricity in the way they needed.

 

Then there's guys like me - some days the only reason I go to work is because I want to see what happens next....

[DieselD]

I have seen people jump ship due to the 6.4. They want nothing to do with it.

 

I think jims theory is spot on, those old timers that know how to work on those horrible things called carberators have trouble keeping up with the latest and greatest technology on the road

[G. Bedford]

I think many of the old timers aren't fearful of the technology as much as they can see that there may not be any money in it.

 

As an example,I was offered the first go at being the hybrid trained tech for our shop. I declined. I already had a full plate of warranty work with the 6.0 at the time that really had little efficency gains on flat-rate. I think the hybrid technology is interesting, but the extended warranty on major components and little maintenance requirements leads me to believe there will little monetary reward. The tech that became certified has already had to have the shop cover his lost hours on each major repair(always warranty) he has encountered so far.

 

Frankly, passing on the chance at this time was a sound business decision. I'm no longer a starry- eyed newbie that has to prove something.

[DwayneGorniak]

I don't believe it's the older dog's either. I've had the pleasure of working with some very wise and intelligent seasoned vets over the years. I see alot of younger guys bailing out of this trade into the higher paying oil patch jobs that require alot less mental stress, physical demand and financial investment. This year was the first time in Canada we were able to write any of our tools off. And the government allowed us a whole whopping five hundred dollars. Whoo hooo. A few of our techs are looking for a way out of the trade as well. Just like myself, they are absolutely sick and tired of the politcs and blood, sweat, tears and huge amount of money they invest into this trade and their careers with absolutely no thanks and understanding as to what it is like to be a flat rate tech. I find this one of if not the most unthankful and financially unrewarding trade to get into. Alot of people are shocked when they hear what we invest financially into our careers and had absolutely no idea that it costs so much. Then there is the topic about what happens to a technician whent they become Master certified and have reached the top with nowhere else to go advance themselves. I have found over the years that the higher trained you get, the more you are relied upon because you have the training in everthing. Therefore you get all the hard to diagnose and wierd problems that the less trained techs sluff off or misdiagnose a few times before they come to you. And you don't make any money on those kind of jobs. You're lucky if you break even, While the less trained (smarter) guys are pounding ball joints or doing tuneups and maintenance making money hand over fist. I have bounced around myself looking for that ballance between financial rewarding and recognition. I seem to be doing just fine, but I know there are alot of other less fortunate people than myself. As for now I know I have job security and I am just going to sit back and watch the trade. And voice my opinion and jab at all those higher up mucky mucks that just never seem to listen or care.

[Alex Bruene]

I agree with you Dwayne. We as automotive technicians have been on the short end of the stick as far as tradespeople are concerned. We probably get close to the lowest rate of pay, we are subjected to insane hours without compensation for overtime and such... Saturdays (some dealers are even opening on Sundays now)... call a plumber or an electrician on a Saturday and find out what kind of a premium you are going to pay for him/her to come to fix your leaky pipe... I honestly don't believe they are any more or less skilled than we are. I've always been opposed to unionizing this trade, but I'm starting to think that's what we need to get us back up to par.

As far as training is concerned, I have learned that, "the more you know, the less you make"... this is one of the reasons that I got into commercial trucks and out of the car shop. Doing warranty "junk" all day, when the guy that's never been to a single training course is firing out 3's and 4's all day... and I only made a few bucks an hour more... for what??

[DwayneGorniak]

Well Alex, before I started in this trade quite a few years back I worked with a union and did not like it due to the fact that it was an abused union. The guys higher up on the todem pole just stood around and drank coffee and smoked cigarettes while all of us lower end scum as they called us had to bust our arses. But I've realized that it is the abused unions that I don't like. The idea of unions is great as long as they don't become abused. And I do believe it is time this trade sees one. I always had this idea that if we could somehow start a union through a magazine like SSGM or a web site we would be better off. I would start by boycoting all federal and provincial government organizations by having every single shop in this country refuse to work on any of their fleet vehicles untill they allowed us to write our tools off. You would eventually see them have issues when they have no one to keep their brakes stopping them and vehicles running, etc. But we would all have to stick together and not backstab eachother like this trade usually does. Doctors, lawyers, and dentists all stick together. Why the hell can't we for once?

 

By the way Keith, I,m not trying to use your site to start up a union. Unless you want to start a North American led union and become the union boss yourself.Might be fun. Hee Heee.

[Jim Warman]

flatratetech.com is a hotbed (using the term loosely) of union activity.... The IAM is their beast of choice and they are getting some shops to sign up. I would imagine, with all the Chrysler stuff going on, that the UAW will make their presence known...

 

And now for my take on the subject.... Somewhere along the line, my "job" became my "career"... I have set goals and made plans for myself. I am very near where I wanted to be - and I am recompensed quite handsomely, thank you.

 

A union will bust any ideas that you had about building a career.... You will become no better than the hack two bays down and they will eradicate any tendencies towards over-achieving. It becomes doubtful if you will be recognized on your own merit. If the economy takes a downturn... the talented youngster with no seniority will be one of the first to go... and the guy that you wished would dry up and blow away will still be there....

 

Look at the thread "intellectual property".... grasp your career tightly and steer it where you want it to go. None of us will ever be irreplaceable... but we can make ourselves invaluable. Don't suck hole your way into but be "THE" guy.... Learn your product and have the answers for them that needs 'em (know how to change the EATC display from "F" to "C".... know how to find a late model radio P/N.... know where to find stuff in the manuals -quick, where do I find cruise control diagnostics - ... read BCMs - SVBs). Stand out from the crowd in a positive way...

 

There are two choices... sit in the coffee room and kvetch along with everyone else.... or do something that will improve "YOUR" position... never, EVER stab anyone in the back. Then, one day you will have the opportunity to go straight time... be paid obscene dollars for overtime work... get performance bonuses and hidden perks (ever had your boss use the company bobcat to clean your driveway for you?).

 

My job is stressful.... if I let it be stressful.... The hours can be long (more of that loverly OT). I must constantly upgrade my knowledge.... and reading beats the hell out of reality TV.

 

I spent a lot of time self-employed - only to find out I was a better tech than I was a businessman.... and now, here I are... a grade 8 dropout earning six digits a year.... getting paid to do things I like to do.

 

You ain't gonna get where you're going by bitching about where you are.

[ktmlew]

Jim? My question is how many of "you" do you suppose are out there getting paid what they are worth?

 

I was "you" back in summer of 03 till the new service manager killed my spirit. Old one got stupid and started sticking money in his pocket that wasn't his. New SM wasn't a "people person" as he put it. Didn't want to deal with customers, parts manager, techs, nobody...all he cared about was the 126 report. Cut, cut, cut. General manager had the same attitude. I bought a laptop so I could get a head start on the coming IDS. They immediately removed the wireless network, said they were "having virus problems", said NO LAPTOPS. SM offered me $500.00 for the laptop I just paid $1050.00 for. I left 3 weeks later.

 

My earnings dropped 6K over 4 month period compared to previous year, mostly due to the 6.0L. When I asked for the other tech that was diesel certified to help with the POS 6.0L the SM went deaf. The other guy was the 70hr a week guy, multiple 30K's every week with 4-wheel brake jobs, so he didn't want to interrupt him with some REAL work.

 

I got tired of working 9.5hr days, plus every other Saturday till 2, some days with a 15 minute or less lunch, Sat's NO LUNCH, plus spending 5-6 hours on the computer every night taking tests or trying to learn how to fix the POS 6.0L.

 

There was a time when I was THE guy to go to. Never particularly fast but I could fix ANYTHING if given time to figure it out.

Usually able to turn 46-55 hours a week depending on whether it was a Sat week.

 

When that became a license to get screwed EVERY week I quit.

 

Tried an independent a month ago that serviced the local EMS. Had all F450 7.3's...I couldn't do it. My will to work that hard is gone. TOO FREAKING MUCH STRESS! We don't get paid, here anyway, but about half what we are worth. Of course the Indy shops have you working on at least 10 cars a day. Mercedes? No problem...we can fix it. Well the guy at the counter says we can, so the fact the scanner doesn't have the appropriate software to communicate with it is irrelevant, right? I'm supposed to have a big red S on my chest, right?

 

Freaking idiots running the places is the biggest problem we face.

[DwayneGorniak]

Damnit Jim, there you go throwing a curve ball into my thought process again. I must agree with you about the intellectual property issue. And I do apply those same sort of tactics to my own agenda and "career". As I said before, I have it pretty good. I'm just one of those guys that looks out for my fellow camrads and goes to bat for them when I can. And maybe the idea of a union isn't quite the right way to go, but just standing together in this country and finding some way of improving the situation especially with the amount of money we invest into this trade and not having that recognised as a necessary expense would be an acomplishment. That's my biggest beef. And not every dealer principal out there is as aprreciative as yours or mine now may be. Trust me, I've worked for some that could give a rats ass about hard you try and what you actually do for them. Most of them are usually away from work on caribean cruises or golfing and touring the world and only worrying about how many dollars you are going to bring in for them this month. And you break the record for hours in the shop, they only ask you if you can do it again next month. Just my two cents again Jim.

[Keith Browning]

By the way Keith, I,m not trying to use your site to start up a union. Unless you want to start a North American led union and become the union boss yourself.Might be fun. Hee Heee.

 

Feel free to discuss anything you wish but I for one do not care for the idea of unions in this day and age. I am surprised this topic took over two years to rear it's ugly head though. The two posts above make some important points. I agree with Jim whole heartedly in that to succeed anywhere you must do all that you can to improve upon yourself, learn and try the best that you can every single day. Being able to carry yourself means that you can survive and being the best you can be and standing out means you will be better compensated.

 

Dwayne, sticking together is a great concept and it works when everyone is dedicated to moving in the same direction. Your realization that "individuals" tend to abuse unions is likely because they need to protect their mediocre asses and that stops progress dead in it's tracks not to mention drag everyone else down to their level. I am in a similar situation to Jim and if all of my hard work and achievements over my 20 year career resulted in being held back and my salary limited to what "the union" can bargain (?) for me, I would not have stayed with it, nor would I be looking forward with as many options as I am coming into. Protection usually comes with a price. Wat to help your fellow man? Cool! Give him an atta-boy, show him how to do something better or teach him to open a book. What is asking him for his union dues going to do for him?

 

Personally, I think unions were a smart thing when they were first conceived. They gave workers rights, protection and an opportunity to get paid a fair wage but their time has passed. It has to be nearly impossible to form a union that has a purpose and dedication that is truly accepted by, and functions in the interest of, all of its members without corruption and without eventually becoming an obstacle in and of itself. We now have laws to protect us and more importantly, we have the ability to make choices... for ourselves. For those many thousands of union workers that feel their union has done right by them my hat is off to them. I am sure there are a few unions that are doing a good job. It is just not for me.

[Jim Warman]

Just remember that I never said it would be easy.... it is a very complex equation with a lot of variables.... Look hard at where you are (shop wise)... do you have a circumstance you can work in - plan in? Or is this situation a lost cause?

 

This is your future... if a move is needed....

 

Once you find a situation you can work with, apply careful planning.... this is YOUR future. $hit, man... this is Alberta... there isn't a Ford dealer here that isn't crying for diesel techs.... I have several "flush" friends aching for me to open "Jimmy Diesels Light Truck Repair"... I don't want that situation... but, for the DP, it is "motivation"....

 

This trade is chock full of techs that are beyond their capabilities - either through sloth or natural selection - full of uncaring techs that don't test properly or verify complaints or repairs properly.... Techs that haven't realized that, even though the DP signs the cheques, the money comes from customers... customers we need to keep as happy as circumstance permits.

 

I got to where I am by helping my fellow techs... and now my basic job IS helping my fellow techs... And I can tell you that the job is rarely boring...

 

You must remember the Henry Ford poster in Edmonton training centre.... "Whether you think you CAN do it or you think you CAN'T.... you're right..."?

 

When the going get's tough, the tough go shopping..... Ooops... that's my wife's line.... When the going gets tough, the tough get going.....

 

FWIW, this July, I turn 29.... I know I will do it gracefully because this will be the 28th time I have turned 29. If this old fart can do it, you young lions should be able to make the earth change rotation....

[ktmlew]

I'll be 50 in Dec...Jim, our career paths are very similar as for being better techs than business men. I could turn 5 million into 1 million in no time flat and wouldn't need a race car to do it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crybaby2.gif Too damn nice...

[DwayneGorniak]

Forgive me man, because I'm sitting here laughing me ars off and I'm not sure how the hell I got this one so stirred up. For cryin out loud Alex what the hell did you get me into.

[Jim Warman]

Think of me as a redneck motivational speaker after watching a "Buckmaster" marathon... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif

 

Lesson learned... put a soapbox in front of me and I'll climb up on it....

[Alex Bruene]

Forgive me man, because I'm sitting here laughing me ars off and I'm not sure how the hell I got this one so stirred up. For cryin out loud Alex what the hell did you get me into.

I don't know... but if you didn't get into it, we would not have this very informative reading...

[DwayneGorniak]

He he he. No kidding eh! This is starting to get good.

[ktmlew]

Just to be clear guys I do miss the trade. My problem came when I had to spend one to 1.5hrs on the computer or phone every day, either with techline or doing prior approvals, fixing the computer network, etc. That was just lost time. The GM saw me on the computer one day while I was waiting for a call back from techline. I didn't know he was watching as I checked my email and some banking stuff. Think that was the reason for him removing the wireless router and saying no laptops. He didn't understand, or care, that FORD told us to get our repair info from the net...he also didn't see that I rarely took a full lunch break.

 

He just wanted me to turn 70hrs a week like the golden boy that got fed gravy work...

 

The one thing that comforts me is the shop is about bankrupt now. SM gone, GM gone, everybody else but three women in the office, GONE. They "flushed" all the business away.

[DwayneGorniak]

I fully understand the situation. I have worked for some extremely greedy, money hungry, sensless, self centred bunch of bastards myself over the years. This is where alot of my opinions have been built up to what they are now. Like I said before, not everybody is as fortunate as Jim, Keith, or myself are now. I have been there! And I now scoul very much at all that greed. And I obviously let people know what I think. I never used to be this way. I used to be that guy that tried to make everyone happy and try not piss anyone off. It never worked for me. Now I just tell it like it is. And that seems to work well for me. And if it pisses anyone off, so be it. But I still believe this industry needs to do something about our expenses and lack of recognition by the big companies and the government. Especially up here in canada.

[G. Bedford]

Maybe that would warrant its own thread, Keith. I would welcome an adult dicussion on the topic.

[ErickBaker]

Speaking of unions... I was cruising the boards at flatratetech.com and came across this. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eeeesh.gif

 

Flateratetech.com

 

Jim made a few good points that really upset the union guys. I got a good chuckle out of the thread anyways. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

[DwayneGorniak]

Holy crap Jim. That's pretty funny. I hope I don't sound like some of those guys. I'm more for just getting recognized by our government and organizations for what we spend and never get a damn break for. It sure would be nice to have descent tax break.

[Jim Warman]

Eric... if I'm not upsetting somebody, I'm probably not doing my job.... What I see on FRT is a lot of guys waiting for someone else to fix their problem for them.

 

Dwayne... the one truth I hold firmly to... if we expect to be treated as professionals, we first need to act professionally....