DwayneGorniak Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 I am getting mixed opinions from dealerships in our area. And I have confused customers. We have some telling customers that they need to run lubricity additives in the new 6.4L's and some dealerships saying that they don't need to run anything. But from what I have read in Powerstroke central, they are saying you don't need to run any additives in the new vehicles designed for ultra low sulfer diesel. The lubricity additives have already been added to the new fuel. I know that we have to run additives in the 2006 and older models to get that lubricity and punch back into the fuel. If you go into Powerstroke Central, on the main page there is a link at the bottom titled:Informatio On Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). Click on that and on the left side in Frequently asked questions. The thirteenth question is: Will I need to put additives in my fuel tank to replace the lubricity provided by the higher suphur content? Heres the link: http://www.clean-diesel.org/faqs.html Anyone have any other facts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torqued_Up Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 Dwayne I read many times that a lubricity package is added to the fuel at the refinery and that adding a lubricity improver is not necessary at all. If I recall it is the process that removes the sulfur that strips away the lubricity more than the sulfur itself. Apparently the sulfur acts as a lubricant to some degree. I also know that the ULSD fuel has a slightly lower thermal energy content and can cause a minor hit on economy. The loss was some ridiculous number like one half of one percent. This leads us to the performance enhancers like cetane boosters which are always a good idea now with cooled EGR engines. The only thing about the older engines I thought was compatibility issues with some seals. Maybe? I know a lot of independents see stuff like that and would know better than us dealer guys working on predominantly newer stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 15, 2007 Author Share Posted July 15, 2007 I advise all my customers running older diesels to use additives and I advise customers running the 6.4's that they only need to run good clean Ultra low sulphur diesel. I am still waiting to see some bulletins from Ford. And I am waiting to get some PM22B in stock, but our parts guys say it is on back order. Anyone know what the PM22B says it's actual application is for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 I would recommend a lubricity additive regardless of which engine or fuel they're running. In the HEUI motors we only needed to worry about the barrels and plungers, in the 6.4 we add a mega dollar HP pump (with one plunger pointing straight down, looking for water). I know the 6.4 needs a different additive because of the DPF, but I don't know the part numbers. Is that the PM22B you're referring to, or is that the Canadian equivalent to our DPF friendly additive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 16, 2007 Author Share Posted July 16, 2007 PM22B is the canadian part number for the new Motorcraft additive. I just havn't seen any of it yet to be able to read the bottle and see what it is rcommended for. I also havn't seen any documentaion from Ford on what they are recommending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I also have seen any documentation from Ford on what they are recommending. At our Ford training center they had a one page Motorcraft brochure talking about the new DPF friendly additive, but it was mostly glitzy sales info and not hard tech data. I saw it, but did not get a copy or write down the part number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGLR13MWZ Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 other than powerstroke central, try powerstrokedeisel.com . The part number for the US is PM22A for Cetane booster (consistes of a lubrication additive, injector cleaner, and cetane boost) and PM23A (consists lubrication additive, injector cleaner and anti-gel) for Anti-Gel. I personally see the need for the products, more for the cetane or anti gel. Not the lubricity issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 16, 2007 Author Share Posted July 16, 2007 I should have elaborated a little better that the reason I am telling cutomers not to do anything yet, is because there is not enough information out there about the fuel and the product yet. I don't want to see them putting the old additives in the new trucks, which some customers have been wanting to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGLR13MWZ Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Dwayne, I agree that there seems to be a bit of confusion over the ULSD and the lubricity. My understanding and I and not sure that I am correct is that the major part of diesels lubricity comes from parrafin wax. Its a natural by product when you refine oil into diesel. Sulfur also gave diesel some lubricity, but not very much. In addition when the base formula of ULSD was decided upon, all diesel manufacturers (most any ways) were part of the process. They didn't make a fuel then say have at it. In my experiences with ULSD in school buses, beverage haulers, cement trucks, and others over the past 4 years there is not a lubricity problem. The only fleet to have a problem was a school district who's transportation director was a complete and utter idiot. He felt that he needed an additive in his ULSD because of lubricity issues, so he added one to his bulk tank. Thats fine and dandy other than the fact it was alcohol based and was for gas motors. After they bought over approx 100 injectors, approx 10 pumps in a 4 month time span he began to complain that the ULSD didn't have enough lubricity in it. at the time no one knew that the additive had been used nor did we pick up on the trend on injectors, because their buying habits were terrible. They would buy from one dealer, then another, then through a NAPA from the dealer. It was ridiculous once it was all laid out. They quit using the additive and all failures subsided after about a month. As far as the fuel additive product put on the street by Ford. Heres the history. They originally introduced it early in 2006. The Cetane Booster (red bottle) was under the part number PM17A in the US and the Anti-Gel (blue bottle)version was under the part number PM18A in the US. A few month prior to the 2008 trucks coming out the testing on the product by the manufacturer revealed that the PM17A and PM18A were not compatible with 2008 trucks. What does that mean for everyone? That means that you can run those in any 2007 and older truck regardless of what fuel you are using. No 2008 usage. Now we have the newer formula. PM22A (Cetane Booster)and PM23A (Anti-Gel)This formula has replaced the previous. There is still some of the older out there on shelves in the parts department. It can still be sold, just not for a 2008 truck. The latest formula can be used for any and all diesel trucks regardless of their year model. 1992 check, 2008 check, 1955,check, and etc. The main reason Ford and the Blue Diamond JV push the additives is fuel quality. Not lubricity. Here in Texas like most states, the stations are not required to state the cetane level of the diesel you are pumping. You could be buying a diesel with a cetane level of 30. as we all know the 6.0 requires 40 and the 6.4 requires 45. That is well short of where it needs to be. Forget the argument between LSD and ULSD for their BTU output and fuel economy difference for a second because this is where the 1% starts to make sense. If you actually could buy both ULSD and LSD (assuming) at the same cetane rating then you would truly see the 1% difference in fuel mileage, but since you get cetane ratings all over the board with both, its not an argument because there is no control in the equation. Even if you have two Shell stations across the street from one another, one could have a 32 cetane and the other 41 cetane. Hence if I fill up with the lower, I will have poor fuel mileage, rougher idle, harder start, noisier engine, and etc just because I got the poorer fuel. The sad part is there is no way to pick the better fuel unless you have the fuel tested or the filling stations knows the cetane level. I highly doubt the filling station knows the level. I asked every one I filled up at for a year and not one knew the cetane level. Only 2 knew what cetane was and they happened to be the owners at local stores. The rule of thumb when I talk to customers is to fill up at places that have high volume of turn over like a truck stop. You might not get the highest cetane, but you will get fuel that is turned over on a regular basis. There is a "sell sheet" that Ford and Blue Diamond putout on both the old and the new product. See if you parts manger has a copy of them or better yet, next time your Blue Diamond rep is in ask him for some copies. He can get you all you want. They are available on http://www.powerstrokediesel.com also. Click on business connections, log in using FMC dealer, click on media tool kit, and it is in there as a PDF along with alot of other PDFs and power points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 16, 2007 Author Share Posted July 16, 2007 Well, I just got our first case of PM@@B fuel additive in and all it says on the bottle is: Ultra Low Suphur Diesel Complient. So does that mean that is only complient with ULSD in the older engines or the new ones as well? I tdoes not say anything about being 6.4L complient or to be used with DPF systems. In the 6.4L class our instructor told us that you can only use additives that say they are for the new DPF systems. So from what I am assuming, the new additive is not complient for the new trucks. Clear as mud to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 If it's the PM22 or PM23 it is 2008 compliant. If it's the PM17 or PM18 it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGLR13MWZ Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I second Larry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 it says on the bottle is: Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Compliant. So does that mean that is only compliant with ULSD in the older engines or the new ones as well? Yes. If the additive is ULSD compliant then it is approved (and safe) to use in ULSD fuel... and ANY diesel engine that requires ULSD. It is also backward compatible. To clarify this for you, engines like the 6.4L use a DPF and THAT is WHY it requires ULSD fuel. Older engines without a DPF, it doesent matter either way. My thinking is that as sulfur is mandated out of the fuel, it will also be mandated out of the additives as well. Once old stock is used up, it will all be diesel sulfur compliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 I knew the reasons for the ULSD fuel and the DPF sytems. All I was getting at is that it would be nice if Ford would get their crap together and send out a bulletin of some sort o explain the uasages of the new product and also recomendations on treating these fuel systems. But instead they keep quiet and then just throw a product out there. But thanks for letting me pick at your brains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGLR13MWZ Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Dwayne, You've got mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 Thanks, that's the kinda stuff I,ve been looking for. Cold hard facts. I've been after my parts manager for about two months now to find me a product sheet. He told me there was no information available on the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torqued_Up Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I was in our retail parts are and saw the additive bottles say NEW FORMULA on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 Since my last post, we have received information on the product and it is cmpatible for the new trucks and is also backwards compatible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGLR13MWZ Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 There will be a "single shot" version out for the cetane boost and anti-gel in early August. Part Numbers will be as follows Cetane Boost PM22ASU Anti Gel PM23ASU If your dealership is a Power Stroke Direct dealer, Ford will do a 50% co-op on this product with the dealer. Has to be a give away with and oil change or such, and for a limited amount of time, like a month. The goal is to grow your business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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