Bruce Amacker Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 1FDXW47P44ED65096 2004 F450 35K This truck was an intermittent no start today in class, but it ran when I got to it (for a minute!) I ran the basic stuff and got a P1725 (Insufficient RPM increase during self test). OK, I need some questions answered. The ICP showed .57V/311PSI KOEO with no ICP codes. While cranking the data looked like this: 1. Why were there no ICP above 0 KOEO (P2289)or Low ICP (P2290/P2291) codes? 2. The calibration was really old, so I reflashed it. No change in data or starting. 3. I unplugged the ICP and both V and PSI went to zero KOEO, and the truck started. Now it sets P2285 (low ICP) and P2617 (open CKP). I know the CKP is a ghost code from cranking. 4. Why did the IPR only go to 16% cranking? I'd think it would go to 65% or something like 7.3's would with really low ICPV. 5. We went for a test drive and the driver said it never ran so good. ICP/IPR and scan data looked perfect. I assume the ICP is going to glitch out again and suggested he get it changed. Sidebar: Can someone run this on OASIS for me and get a recent history? The drive claims it was just in for a tranny shift complaint, and the cal update had a couple of tranny updates in it. He was really happy with how it shifted. I was surprised the dealer didn't update the cal. Any comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Bruce, I had a 6.0 do the EXACT same thing with the 1725. I made a post about it recently on all my findings and what hotline said..... Also did the truck run super quiet with no pedal response when you got it started with 16% IPR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted August 8, 2007 Author Share Posted August 8, 2007 Bruce, I had a 6.0 do the EXACT same thing with the 1725. I made a post about it recently on all my findings and what hotline said..... Also did the truck run super quiet with no pedal response when you got it started with 16% IPR? Yep, exactly. Real quiet, poor throttle response, sluggish. We never put a fuel pressure gauge on it, though. I looked up your last post to see it was in intermittent stuck IPR. Mine could be this too, but I'd lean towards a bad ICP since it's showing a bunch of voltage KOEO. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I posted a similar question earlier about ICP issues not setting codes all the time. I have had a very similar problem to the one you have there. I still think there are calibration issues causing it to not set a code... but who really knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Your biased sensor is going to cause any amount of funky symptoms... Curious that the PCM can't identify a biased ICP on it's prestart "sweep". Whether or not this would rate a MIL is up to the engineers but having a code would remind a tech to check sensor coherency... and I can't see this causing any nuisance codes... Of course, I have to temper some of these observed readings with the question.... "what makes 0.18 volts *OK* and 0.19 volts *bad*... similar to the EOT/ECT question... why is 25 degrees F OK and 26 a fail"? On the subject of ICP... why do we (or Ford, for that matter) putz around with ICP "pressure"? This is a computed value, anyway. If it's "right", it is convenient, I suppose... but if it's wrong enough, the PCM is going to display the default value and, without using ICP_VOLTS, many techs are getting snookered. It wouldn't be any harder for us to say "for the PCM to command injectors, we need X volts" instead of 500 PSI... For my part, we do see many biased sensors on the early builds (ICP at the back)... most of these leak... Last one I had, I cut back into the harness over a foot and could still "milk" oil out of the wires... I released the truck reluctantly (retail job) after making sure the customer knew that there was a wiring harness in his future. To try to help Alex with his question.... one reason why a condition may or may not set a code is in "nuisance avoidance".... If any and every sensor "glitch" triggered that damned "check money light", we'd be on a constant witch hunt. It would be nice if, in the introduction section to the PPT, they could list how many times in how many consecutive key cycles the concern had to occur to earn "pending" status or to actually set a code.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin phillips Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 i have a 06 really quiet and icp is as mentioned above going to try a icp and connector and see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin phillips Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 icp sensor fixed it runs alot better also thanks for the info guys guess that was my first 6.0 biased icp sensor on new style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 Ran across an 05 with a biased icp sensor today. First one in a while. Engine sounded like it was running under water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 I usually see about two biased ICP sensors a weak. Usually reading on the low side though (.13 to .16 volts). Don't forget guys that the spec is .18 to .24 volts KOEO. However, I have seen high as well. and they do run quiet. If you look at the fact that you have over 300 psi KOEO, I would think the pcm will only command the calculated value of IPR duty cycle that it thinks it needs to hit it's target. The ICP reading may be over 600 at idle, but that is only calculated ICP and not actual ICP. I would also bet that if you put a high pressure guage in the high pressure system, you would find that the actual ICP would be very low and that is why the engine sounds quiet. If a guy had tons of time, you could pull the passenger side valve cover and put a gauge in the top of the high pressure rail at the test port then run the engine and see what the actual reading is compared to the PCM calculated reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHNO60 Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 I AGREE GUYS. THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A PROGRAMMING UPDATE SOMEWHERE THAT ENGINEERING MADE TO NOT TRIP THE ICP DTC'S AS EASY. 7.3 DAYS YOU WOULD KNOW PRETTY QUICK. THESE DAYS ALMOST EVERY ICP ISSUE DOESN'T FLAG. I'VE BEEN SEEING ALLOT OF BIAS ISSUES TOO. I HAVE ONE HERE WITH A 330 PSI ICP WHEN HOT and ipr at 16 percent. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted October 13, 2007 Author Share Posted October 13, 2007 If a guy had tons of time, you could pull the passenger side valve cover and put a gauge in the top of the high pressure rail at the test port then run the engine and see what the actual reading is compared to the PCM calculated reading. I'll work on getting a PN for the Tee fitting so this can be done externally on the later 6.0. The fuel pressure adapter 303-765 is the same 12mm/1.5 thread as the ICP, but the metric Tee to screw the ICP back in is a stumbling point. It would probably be a good setup for identifying a biased ICP. I've always used 10% as a cutpoint when doing this test on 7.3s and IH trucks. It's amazing how many you'll find.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak If a guy had tons of time, you could pull the passenger side valve cover and put a gauge in the top of the high pressure rail at the test port then run the engine and see what the actual reading is compared to the PCM calculated reading. I'll work on getting a PN for the Tee fitting so this can be done externally on the later 6.0. The fuel pressure adapter 303-765 is the same 12mm/1.5 thread as the ICP, but the metric Tee to screw the ICP back in is a stumbling point. It would probably be a good setup for identifying a biased ICP. I've always used 10% as a cutpoint when doing this test on 7.3s and IH trucks. It's amazing how many you'll find.... I resent that comment about tons of time..... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Guess what? The ICP female is another morphodite fitting that nobody makes. Parker says they do not make a M12x1.5 female anything that the ICP will screw into. Here we go again wasting a half of a day running around to hydraulic stores.... The tube nut is metric and has to be drilled out to 1/4". It is also too long and bottoms against the ICP o-ring, so I had to take a whizzer wheel and shorten it by 1/4" or so. Luckily, the bottom of the ICP has a flare on it for some reason unknown to me. The rest of the stuff is pretty basic 1/4" tube, but I used a high pressure compression fitting, 'cause I knew I'd be abusing it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif The victim: 2006 6.0. It's a sweet young thing, still wet behind the ears with only 700 miles:/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif The result: Is my ICP biased? No, it's DEAD ON! You know, I've always gotten a rise abusing stuff. I wonder what would happen if I ground the IPR while this is together? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif That IDS won't let me go to 97% KOER.... Mebby I better put the 5k gauge on..... You can clearly see the HPOP internal pressure relief valve opening and closing, with the engine doing an accompanying "dance" from the timing variation while the ICP cycles crazily from 3500-5000psi. This is how IH tells you to test HPOP's, with the minimum PSI cutpoint at 4100PSI. The ones I've had with bad pumps that set 333 codes (P1211) would only make 1800PSI or so with the IPR grounded. It set a few codes, too, but I wonder why the IPR command went to 59% with the ICP so high? It set a few codes, too. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif More fun to come. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle E. Grathwol Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Very cool stuff Bruce. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 That's pretty neat Bruce. Now I might have to "make some time" myself to make one and to make an adaptor for the weee little test port plugs in the tops of the injection ralis for the older ones. That fuel pressure adaptor will also fit in the top of the high pressure pump on the older Sick-o's. There is a plug in the top of the housing. But the severe lack of access to it is what got me thinking about testing at the high pressure rails in the first place. I just find that I am so damn busy at work that when the end of the day comes, I am absolutely wiped and in severe need of refreshments. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/drinkingdude.gif Keep up the good work. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif Y'know.... even though one would expect a pressure relief valve on a pump, it's something I never considered... along with the thought that one day, one of us is going to find one with a relief valve that leaks. This is good stuff, Bruce and I envy your time for pla..... errrr, I mean research..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 ...or how about an IPR that is stuck closed? I have seen them srick but never full on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Been more than once I've stared at the problem and not seen it.... This is where bouncing thouyghts off someone else can be such a valuable "tool"... get's all the synapses firing, so to speak.... Speaking of stuck IPRs (I'm not sure how many guys do this), our first step in the air test is to ramp up the duty cycle on the IPR while listening to the sound.... we take it right to the "top" and then roll it over the top back to zero. Can someone please move all those damned trees - I can't see the forest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 Now I might have to "make some time" myself to make one and to make an adaptor for the weee little test port plugs in the tops of the injection ralis for the older ones. You mean early 6.0's, right? It's in the required tool kit under 303-766. Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak That fuel pressure adaptor will also fit in the top of the high pressure pump on the older Sick-o's. You mean newer 6.0's with the V pump' date=' '05 up? The one you use for air testing on E-Vans?/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak There is a plug in the top of the housing. But the severe lack of access to it is what got me thinking about testing at the high pressure rails in the first place. [/quote'] You're referring to '05 up F models? Sidebar disclaimer: After grounding the IPR, shooting the pics and loading them into my PC, I realized how stupid I was holding a maxed out 5K gauge in my hand. If you guys decide to do this, please follow better safety procedures than I did. The only safety gear I was using was safety glasses. If something was to have let loose, I could be missing fingers, a hand, or worse. The truck also started hard after that test, and showed some leakage with an air check. It was not driven, so I don't know if it was starting hard from the air and HP nitrogen test (that I haven't posted yet) and the HP system not being bled, or it's because I blew a seal while grounding the IPR. I'll keep you updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 Speaking of stuck IPRs (I'm not sure how many guys do this), our first step in the air test is to ramp up the duty cycle on the IPR while listening to the sound.... we take it right to the "top" and then roll it over the top back to zero. I noticed the IPR actually closes halfway at 9% and all the way at 18%. Mebbe all you have to do is hook up the air and cycle the key, which defaults IPR to 15%? I noticed no ICP leakage aired up KOEO unless I commanded the IPR down. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 On systems that have small leaks, we usually hear a change in the noise before IPR duty cycle gets very high... I have tinitis so I am a poor judge of any hissing or whistling noises... Rolling the duty cycle over the top, so to speak, gives that instantaneous indication of whether the IPR is moving in response to duty cycle or not. Hmmmm.... I spend way too much time in hospitals with my loving bride (Crohns disease) and can never resist "tinkering" (within reason, of course). The oxygen systems have a very accurate flow gauge... Once again, I am thinking "overkill". As for the gauge... hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.... Good judgement comes from experience.... unfortunately, experience comes from bad judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak Now I might have to "make some time" myself to make one and to make an adaptor for the weee little test port plugs in the tops of the injection ralis for the older ones. You mean early 6.0's, right? It's in the required tool kit under 303-766. Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak That fuel pressure adaptor will also fit in the top of the high pressure pump on the older Sick-o's. You mean newer 6.0's with the V pump' date=' '05 up? The one you use for air testing on E-Vans?/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak There is a plug in the top of the housing. But the severe lack of access to it is what got me thinking about testing at the high pressure rails in the first place. You're referring to '05 up F models? Sidebar disclaimer: After grounding the IPR, shooting the pics and loading them into my PC, I realized how stupid I was holding a maxed out 5K gauge in my hand. If you guys decide to do this, please follow better safety procedures than I did. The only safety gear I was using was safety glasses. If something was to have let loose, I could be missing fingers, a hand, or worse. The truck also started hard after that test, and showed some leakage with an air check. It was not driven, so I don't know if it was starting hard from the air and HP nitrogen test (that I haven't posted yet) and the HP system not being bled, or it's because I blew a seal while grounding the IPR. I'll keep you updated. [/quote'] /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Yeah those little guys Bruce. My mind was just a little foggy from not really thinking about work while i am enjoying my weekend. I use them for air pressure testing, But what I was getting at is: Now I can make up a guage system to adapt to them for pressure testing. Hmmmm, now you got me thinkin again. Hmmmm, I think I am going to have a close look at our power steering tester that no one has used in years and see if I can adapt it to those little fittings. That will save me money from buying a new guage and hose setup. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 This is a thinly veiled attempt to keep one post count ahead of Dwayne. I don't think I'll ever catch Grandpa. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif Y'know, one day, one of us is going to find one with a relief valve that leaks. I'm willing to bet you already have, it's called a bad HPOP. Nobody ever takes one apart to see why it's bad... 258 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 We've unearthed a couple with bad vanes..... Indicator is a low and fluctuating ICP.... While air testing, use a starter button to bump the motor over..... listen for the gurgle in the oil filter housing.... Too early to tell if this is something we can depend on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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