Keith Browning Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 There have been quite a few posts in several forums about technicians leaving the business. It is also becoming more difficult to find new techs, experienced or entry level. We have witnessed the closing of hundreds of dealers that once employed thousands of trained technicians but every year we are reminded that there is a dangerous shortage. This is finally hitting home for me. My dealer has always had problems finding good, employable technicians and truck/diesel techs are harder to find yet. But we have always been able to fill the bays after some time went by. I am now saying good bye to two good auto techs in our shop with training. They have been with the company over ten years and are leaving to work in different fields. Well, one is going to be a state employed mechanic. The trend seems to indicate more will leave before long. Why are skilled workers finding it difficult to make decent money in this business? This is a high tech industry that represents retail and service business. Will we hit bottom and find ourselves in a business that cant support itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Sorry to hear of your loss... Interesting question - Why are skilled workers in this business finding it hard to make decent money... You know you're opening a can of worms here, right? Of course you do... First, what is "decent money?" Do you miss any meals? Do you miss any mortgage payments? Can you afford it when the kid needs new shoes and the wife needs perfume? Do you want to make more money than the "flusher" a few stalls down, since occasionally you have to actually use that 3lb. mass of gray matter in your head? Or, do you want to be able to afford that $500K house on the golf course, next to the doctors and lawyers? How much money do you want? And, more importantly, how much do you need? We can quantify a few things. Look at your tax records for the last few years. More than likely, you're staying about the same from year to year. A few ups, and a few downs. Problem is, the cost of things go up over time. A happy meal for my daughter is $3.50 now, used to be less than $3. Sucks, I know. I've got one brother and one sister. (you might recall a post I gave from the heart some time ago - "why bother") They make more money than I do. They both work in the air conditioning, 40 hours per week, with paid overtime and benefits out the wazoo. We all have the same schooling. My work is more demanding - physically, mentally, and financially. I work 10 hour days, 5 days a week. I've got tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools (my sister and brother dont' even have to bring a pen to work with them). Whine, whine, whine. I work hard and don't get rewarded for it. Fine, time to move on. But wait, this is the best paying business in my area. I can't make this kind of money anywhere else in town. So... I can't make as much as bro and sis. But I can't make more anywhere else. Maybe it's time to stop comparing myself to people categorically different? I don't miss any meals. I haven't missed any mortgage payments. The spouse has perfume and the offspring has new shoes. Maybe I'm doing alright... Hearty congratulations to anyone who leaves this field for more money. I respect their courage and wish them the best. As for me, maybe I don't need to watch the flusher two stalls down. Maybe I need to watch my own work, instead. Accurate, timely repairs. Honesty with customers, management and coworkers. A smile on my face at least once a day. Willingness to lend a hand to someone who needs it. These are the things I need to do. If I don't get rewarded for it, maybe I need to redefine the word "reward." Now don't get the wrong idea. I'm not rolling over. I've got my eye on a few things. There is more than one iron in the fire right now. Some of them are turning profitible, others are a bit immature still. I can't retire from this business - not unless I move from the diesel and transmission specialties (and since my employer is deficient in these areas, that move seems unlikely). My suggestion to you all, and take it however you wish (which means "I'm open to flame"), is to take a look at yourself. Trim the fat away. Concentrate on what is important. Plan for the future, knowing that your body will quite possibly wear out before retirement. What else can you do? Woodworking? Electronics? Computer repair? Work on neighbor's cars in the driveway? Learn a new skill that can be massaged into a career. Put a little back for the future (my plan - 10% to God, 10% for the future, 5% for me, and the other 75% for today's needs). And don't compare yourself to others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Greg good post.... The thing that I see the biggest factor for techs leaving the business is A. No work B. the 6.4 and C. they dont think the future is bright for ford. Talking to you guys on this forum seems to make me think you guys have a lot of work, almost too much. Us, we have a brand new truck shop, brand new everyting, 6 bays that rarely get filled, and top of the line everything just waiting to be used. I get frustrated when their is no truck work. I have to find a way to put a escape on a 18,000lb 2 post. When the other diesel tech was gone for 5 days I booked 67 hours all truck hours. Now taht he is back, he grabs all the tickets and i have nothing to work on. I sit their, and on here contemplating why the hell I am doing this. I dont want to get out of the business because when we are busy I love working on trucks. It's a passion. When there is nothing to work on how can i pursue my passion. The 6.4 coming out is another reason I keep reading about. I think it had a way better launch then the 6.0. but older techs think otherwise. What does the future hold for Ford. That post about the canoe's is awesome and so true. Did the news get a hold of toyota recalling all the new V8 powerplants in the new truck because customers are complaining they sound like shit when they start in the morning. No. I know Honda and Toyota techs making a killing at their dealerships. I know a service writer at a honda store that says he RARELY gets work declined. Dont get me started on the euro market because those techs make a killing also. Blah, we'll see. THe more techs that get out means the more opportunities for us. I get super flustered when techs that go to work for huge companies like ComED, Henkels and McCoy, First Student that have boatloads of superduties, talk to me about how getting out of a dealership was the best thing they have ever done. How being hourly and taking as much time with no pressure to do a job on a truck is a dream. How the benifits are soo much better and how much less stress tehy have to worry about. I dunno those are my /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 One thing that I can say that I have seen time and time again is this... and it's actually one of the main reasons I made the move to commercial diesel, and out of the car shop world... I am certified in everything, and when working in this car shop (that was not specialized), I would fix anything and everything that was given to me. I made my hours, but really had to work to do it. Now... The guy on the other side of the shop from me, had never been to a training course, but he could diagnose Windstar intake gasket leaks and fix them left, right and center... but if the check engine light wasn't a lean code, he'd hand it back and tell the advisor that he can't figure it out since he has never had any driveability training, then get handed a maintenance 3, and sell brakes and so on... I've worked with so many people like that, it made me sick... and it seems to happen in alot of dealers... Like they say, the more you know, the more you get screwed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 Greg, that was a little more philosophical than I was fishing for but good post. It sounds like you have made peace with your life and what you want out of it. That just might be the key to this though. I just think its a little alarming to see techs disappearing though. I was wondering if anyone else is seeing this as well. My shop seems to have some morale issues and many of the guys are always pointing at others instead of looking at themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Keith, the only thing I dont understand is how they say that the business needs a crap-load of techs. I am in Advanced Performance Diagnosis class which is at a UTI campus, and They pump kids out like nobody's business. THen you hear about what 800 Ford dealers closing? Is it just Ford that is doing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Ford has lost almost one-half the market share they used to have. They are laying off over 40 thousand employees and closing up to 16 plants by 2012. Ford wants to become profitable at their new market share. The reality is Ford is not growing but pulling back. Toyota has more market share than Ford now and has 1700 dealers. Ford at its old share had 4300 dealers. Do the math. The dealer body will need to lose around 2000 dealers. As Ford makes fewer vehicles the dealers will starve on the small slice available. As dealers close techs will have fewer options. Large dealers(Autonation,Lithia,Penske,UAG) will buy up the smaller points leading to the same pay plans and benefit packages at multiple "dealers". As the smaller points fall away there will be a glut of techs looking for jobs so the dealers will pick and choose the better techs. No question the vehicles are getting better. A few years ago the PSMAC approached Ford because they wanted more maintenance. They barely got out alive. It is hard to convince the motoring public that quality has improved when at every visit to the dealer they are pounced on to be "flushed". Ford's numbers showed 9-12% of the past customers would not buy another Ford product because they felt the cost of ownership was too high. The future holds extended intervals, so eventually maintenance work will dry up. Lifetime air filter(Focus), fuel filters in tank, no trans. dipsticks, electric steering assist,extended life coolants/fluids, timing chains instead of belts and sealed hub bearings all drain away the old services. "Streamlined diagnostics" on warranty repairs will become more common on pattern failures. Throw on a part aka the Focus fuel pump recall. Customer satisfaction programs will become more prevelant and take away more tech gravy. I simply see very tough times ahead and am glad my time is short. I am a second generation automotive tech, but there will not be a third. I want my kids to choose a field that has growth potential. The auto repair field is full of people looking for a niche to survive in. I do not suggest to youngsters to enter the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Well keith I found that at about 25 I realized that I had topped out in wages and had gotten my senior master in both gas and diesel so it was time for a new challenge. I knew my body could not handle another 20 years of this, so off to college I went. These were the two main factors that influenced me. There is very limited upward mobility. Add to that the meager benefits that most dealers give and the decision was clear. I have about a year left of working full time and going to college 3/4 time, then I start university full time and will most likely work part time at the dealer. They have expressed interest in retaining me even if it is only part time. I have 2 young techs in my shop both are about a year out of school. I think that this is the only way to keep your shop staffed to the level you want. There is indeed a shortage of good experienced techs, and it costs a fortune to steal them away. I agree with most of the comments that gary made. There is a limited niche left for technicians. The industry is changing in a big way and I'm not sure that our position will be the one to benefit from that change. Oh and for the record I don't think that it is that difficult to make decent money in this field, but you have to work awful damn hard for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Two articles worth reading. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070716/AUTO01/707160355/1001/BIZ http://www.philly.com/inquirer/business/20070520_Wheels_Falling_Off.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Ah.... the "trend".... which one is going to get top billing? Sherman and I stepped into the WayBack machine and landed in the late 60s... about the time I was indentured as an apprentice.... I was a real gearhead back then... wanna talk about making ignorant mods on your daily driver? How does dual quads on a 289 sound? Anyway... this trade was pretty much a dumping ground for the dregs of humanity. If your son couldn't make it as an electrician or a plumber... well, he could always become a mechanic. Even back then, this was a gross misconception. Since I first entered this trade, it has been a nearly 40 year learning experience. I am often amazed that I haven't become a real dinosaur... The transition from breaker point ignition to module networks was a long and arduous journey.... one that just seemed to suit me... I get to work with my hands, I get to work with my mind, I'm a detective... I'm a doctor... I have to consider liability and legality and psychology.... Every day is a new challenge - and I can't let a challenge go untried... Those techs that are leaving the trade were bound to leave the trade at some point in time... I left, once upon a time (twice, actually) - I bought a Mack R700... Thank God that didn't last too long.... Later, I tried partsmongering... and that lead to running a bulk fuel station (along with some ridiculously unrelated sidelines that the fuel dealer entered)... the culmination was a 2AM call from a band looking for 10 sets of guitar strings... and yes, I made the sale. The techs that are leaving the trade are also what I would call relatively young.... I see guys with 10 years under their belt considering themselves as being techs for a "long time"... 10 years is barely long enough for most of these guys to realize that they don't know everything they think they know.... We have a young journeyman... his last day is in two weeks.... He has named two reasons for leaving our store... both of them limp-dick... but he is leaving the trade and none of his stated reasons would have driven any sane person to that decision... Also, consider that three local stores are offering $40/FRH. It certainly isn't the pay (in our area) that is driving his decision... but I'm damned if I can figure his reasoning... Fewer youngsters entering the trade.... From what I can see, the free enterprise system in the US has turned vocational training into a three ring circus... Vocational colleges telling snot nosed neophytes that they will be worth 6 figures a year off of a little book learnin' and no real world experience and a labour system that guarrantees that the employee and the employer will rarely ever be on equal footing. A lot of these young'uns are looking for instant gratification... big paychecks, clean hands and easy money..... Sidebar.... we had a shop staff meeting tonight followed by dinner and cocktails at a local watering hole. Talk at my end of the table turned to "what I did in high school"... not much for me to say there... I didn't go to high school. But all the youngsters spoke as if they had one voice.... "I did just enough to get by....". That, dear readers, sent a shiver down my spine. Last month, our door rate was $119.95/hr. It increased... how much, I haven't had chance to see.... What I can be sure of is that we have good retail traffic... people willing to spend over $120/hr are NOT looking for "just enough to get by...". In some respects, the trade has a stigma.... whether we work for a dealer or an independant, mainstream society views us with a jaundiced eye.. We are a necessary evil and are, by and large, not to be trusted... Most of us here are serious about our endeavours and likely have some sort of loyal customer base... But most of the techs out there are only interested in a 8 to 5 job and applying themselves as little as possible to stay where they are... With a small faction demanding the involvement of root vegetables (onions, if you will) in order to bully customers and management alike in to paying for (in too many cases) "just enough to get by....". Consider this (sorry Kieth... totally off subject.... perhaps)... if diagnosing a concern with a complex engine management system is worth .... say... $120/hr... what , per hour, is a brake reline worth? Certainly, a bay is X number of square feet.. and that bay needs to realize a return on it's investment... But should the guy that can barely do a brake job right be worth as much as a guy that can look at a VDR snapshot and decide where to apply his diagnostic efforts? Tony alludes to "not enough work...".... Something is very wrong with that situation. From where I sit, there should never be "not enough work"... Is this a store with that "we have them for the next <yada> years mentality? Is this a store that nurtures their retail capability? We are fools if we think that a store can exist only on warranty repairs... If a shop is scratching for work, the local economy is either in the toilet or the marketing plan should be put there. This trade has been in some sort of a quandry since the day I first signed up.... "back in the day", the technology we dealt with was so easy "even a cave man could do it"... "back in the day", this trade was headed for some sort of major, and very difficult, overhaul. Today, we are in the same boat.... only further from shore and the water is much, much deeper.... In Canada, we have techs leaving the trade and we have difficulty attracting new talent.... Social changes account for some (I was born 100 years too late - that means I'm a working fool and I think that if I make things good for my boss, he'll make things good for me.... it's working so far). But I don't think we are seeing it as much as you southern guys are... But, in Canada, a tech has invested at least four years of his or her life before they can even consider spreading their wings - and THAT can have a temporizing effect. For this trade.... Ray Bradbury said "something wicked this way comes"..... Pogo Possum said "I have seen the enemy... and he is us....". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Jayson I am going to disagree with the maintainence. My mom has a 03 accord and she has sooo much to keep up with or "HONDA WILL NOT WARRANTY THE FAILED PART" they told me. I asked the dealer when she was at 15,000 miles to doa 15k They wanted $400. THinking that, that was astronomical I called another Honda Dealer they said $650. They told me they had to adjust the valves in the Vtec engine ( i thought they were automatic ). My friend bought a Mitsubishi endeavor. There is soooooooo much to do on that at 30k its unbelievable. Honda dealers are packed selling shit like. Like i said honda owners take it in the wazoo when they go to the dealer and they love it. The publics misconception that the honda is the best vehicle in the world and Honda saying you have to perform regular maintainence or risk the voiding of ure warranty. that i dont get. What do we have on all the new vehicles.... 30k. trans flush oil change rotate. Jim me saying "there isnt enought work" stems to the truck side. I have 60 hour weeks, I have 30 hours weeks. I would love a steady stream of business but with another ford dealer 3-4miles away that wins the presidents award every year, has unhappy techs. A super small shop bad mouths us and takes some business away. Another is from the other post where service writers are incompitent on promises. They tell the customer it will be done today, when tehy havent even checked the status of the truck. other things are " THEY NEED THE TRUCK TONIGHT " I stay late to finish it, what the hell next morning its sitting out there and so hte following day. Again, I dont think i could leave the business, im still young and maybe i dont understand a lot. But you guys on this site motivate me to do " the right thing " and " FIRTFT. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 15, 2007 Author Share Posted August 15, 2007 Well more shit hit the fan today, a third tech gave notice today and HE"S ONE OF MINE! Lost to the wrecking company he came from, higher pay, benefits, the same story. I don't blame him one bit and will miss him greatly. This is not good and it translates to more crap work for the two of us remaining and my soon to be partner has been having difficulties lately. Crap work means tow-ins no starts, bad turbos and transmissions. My new writer wants to book more work so we can sell more services. Fat chance. We can barely get jobs done now without it backing up in the lot. Technicians are hard enough to attract let alone certified diesel techs. Anybody want to move to New Jersey? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif Then again, if things get really bad I might have to bail myself! Anybody hiring? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 We'll make a hole for you here, Keith. The new guy's gotta buy the next case of beer, though. Have it iced and ready to go by 5:30... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 We just lost 3 techs along with 1 parts guy. Seems like a epidemic happening. Sucks just makes everybodies life harder. 1 of the techs just got done with 6.4 training, guess it scared the hell out of him, anyway he's going to a industrial fleet- hourly and better bennys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 The big city fleets in the greater Toronto area have certainly taken their fair share of techs from dealers around here... from what I have been told by a recruiter is that dealer techs are their main target. I can see how it is attractive to some of the (how can I say this right) dog-fu... I mean... non-hustlers. It basically works out to around $60K a year (give or take),only work 8 hours a day, juicy pension and paid for benefits and uniforms, yada, yada, yada. "The Trend" exists up here just as it does down in the states... maybe one day the fall-out will be great enough to make some dealers start to offer up some "perks". As for me, I prefer the dealer system, and I'm sure the extra money that I make over what city fleets are paying will more than make up for the lack of pension if I put it away right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torqued_Up Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 WORK with YOU? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif NEVER!!! but you do make awesome chicken wings my friend /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 I could offer you an "entry level" position.... Of course, once you jumped through some hoops set by the tradesmans and qualifications branch, we could pump you up to Master tech rates. I have 3 techs that can make up to $40/flat rate hour now that our new raise has "settled in". Two of my techs (both diesel guys) regularly book 110ish hours WHEN WE ARE SLOW (pay period is twice a month). To *book* those hours, they would likely *clock* about 90ish. FWIW, 110 hours in a pay period would have them with gross (before deduction)wages of $4400... thta's $8800/month. We are rarely slow and, when I was on the bench 120-130 hours was closer to the norm (clocked time would be closer to 100-110 hours). In spite of this, we are still having trouble attracting people.... My 19 year old son recently hired on with an oilfield service rig company. His last pay stub had him *taking home* over $2500 for two weeks work. As long as they aren't "tripping" out of a hole, work is pretty easy... Sometimes they can have extended wait times while a consultant tries to decide what is ass and what is hole in the ground.... But, at the same time, weather can be an enemy... Take home that much scratch for what is basically an entry level position in that field makes it hard to convince a youngster that the $17ish per hour he will make as a first year apprentice is "good". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 So your guys get $100K a year? now thats canadian money. whats the transfer in real money. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 You 'Muricans are so cute with the "real money".... Been a long time since Canadian money was play dough. My last pay stub was for July 31 through Aug 14... was pre-deduction $4531.56 CAD... this converts (at todays rate) to $4273.04 USD. The exchange rate most Americans remember is when the CAD was wallowing in the 60 cent range. What my payroll deductions were not so nice.... I'm in the highest income tax bracket that Canada has /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/puke.gif I'm always amazed when I look at my pay stubs.... my first full time job (non-automotive) paid me the princely sum of $28 per week. When I became a Journeyman, my wages skyrocketed to nearly $4 per hour and my loving bride and I went out celebrating... This will likely come as a surprise - in the late '50s, the Canadian dollar was worth a buck seven US... And then the Liberals happened... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 18, 2007 Author Share Posted August 18, 2007 Jim, I think the "real money" perspective comes from the fact that UNTIL now, American cash was green unlike the multi colored bills found in Canadian currency. At least that is how I perceived it. I am still not used to having colors on my ca$h. The new $20's still make me look twice to see if somebody spilled tea of juice on them! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 You seem to be very well off..... how long have "your guys" been doing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Kieth, I had never thought of it that way before... and you are quite right... "Back in the day", each denomination was one colour...a single was green, a deuce (two dollar bill) was reddish, and so on... Until I got used to our new, colourful bills, I thought they looked a little "third worldish". Our bimetal toonie is still a little over the top.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 18, 2007 Author Share Posted August 18, 2007 You seem to be very well off..... how long have "your guys" been doing this? Care to clarify? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 18, 2007 Author Share Posted August 18, 2007 A lot of currency seems to be frivolous in appearance. Many people now simply carry a bank card and swipe it at every purchase. Me, I would prefer reverting back to gold coins that you carry around in a sack. Then, a man's worth could truly be judged by the size of his sack. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 I've been with this store for about 5 years. Tony... we've always been one of the higher paid shops in town but the labour pool in Alberta has shrunk drastically in the last very few years and other stores have caught up to us in terms of wages. On another forum, I see techs complaining about wages under $20/hour and I can't fathom that (the low wages, that is)... though I will admit that this last five years has seen tech wages in Alberta take a massive leap... by about 40%. When I started here, base journeyman rate was, IIRC, $26/hr and it has steadily climbed to mid thirties... and there is a 50 cent hike for each specialty and a $2/hr performance bonus if the tech books over 100 hours in a period. In general, the labour pool in western Canada is thin.... it is almost impossible to find licenced techs... signing bonuses have almost become a way of life and, in all honesty, I can see this as the beginning of binding contracts as employers try to protect the investment these bonuses represent. I've seen stores offer as high as $7500 to sign and I've "heard" of stores offering even higher... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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