Jim Warman Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 I, too, am a slave to the ubiquitous plastic card... With your sack of gold coins, one could easily tell if he was getting a little giddy in the stores.... not so with the card - until you see the line marked "overdraught charges" on your statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 29, 2007 Author Share Posted August 29, 2007 UPDATE: My best team mate's last day has come and gone. I am now dealing with myself and another, with a 6.0L Econoline bus getting an injector and another Econoline getting a 7.3L oil pan resealed, choking the shop. I have a stack of 9 repair orders filled with no-starts, oil leaks and "cooling system problems" that keeps getting thicker. We have since hired two new techs. The first is a younger car tech, keeps his mouth shut and looks like he does decent work! The "new" guy started Monday. He was put on the car team until Thursday, then he is mine. I spoke with him yesterday for about 2 minutes. Arrogant know-it-all-idiot. Yes, I got that from two brief minutes. He has already earned a reputation as Mr.Know-it-all with the gift of gab. I may need to make it clear to him I don't need him in my bay talking shop. I predict he won't be singing Christmas carols in our dealer this year. He lasted at his last job one short week... wouldn't work on a limo on jacks and didn't like his team leader telling him what to do. Any predictions? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epokiak Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I ALSO LEFT THE DEALERSHIP LAST MONTH,LEFT WITH FULL MASTER TRAINING,SHOP SWITCHED FROM FLAT RATE TO STRAIGHT TIME, COULD NOT KEEP SELF MOTIVATED WITH THE DROP IN PAY, NEW SHOP FORMAN,NOT ENOUGH RECOGNITION,TIME FOR CHANGE, STILL IN AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I predict that I already sympathize with you.... Since we have had this sudden influx of "youth", my faith in humanity has nose-dived... Even my best new apprentices are headstrong, refuse to admit they in "over their heads" and would rather furble around for hours, making bad decisions than ask for assistance.... If they are looking for me to lead them down the path, I can't... it wouldn't be right and would delay the inevitable requirement of forming ideas and making decisions - something they should start forming from the git-go.... All I can do is give them a shove in the right direction, a pep talk on defining "job" and "career" and where they see their sorry asses 10 years from now... Well, all that and show them how to perform the tests.... listen to what the vehicle is trying to tell them, use the resources available.... that big, sometimes useless attempt at instilling experience in the inexperienced... without the pain.... I'm not heartless.... but it would be nice if I could find someone that can THINK... someone that will ask WHY.... someone that can apply "logical progression" and, at the same time, think sideways (especially when the PC/ED tells us to use an ohmmeter). I see a lot of my "younger self" in some of these budding youngsters.... If they can avoid many of my early assumptions and mistakes, they will have long and fruitful careers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron_Johnson Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Wow, Grandpa Jim...You sure have made a lot of good points in your posting, as have the rest of you. I left my dealer 3 yrs ago to finish my Heavy Equipment and Bus/Transport trades. There are advantages and disadvantages to those trades. Presently I can top out at almost 33/hr if I make over 12hrs a day. As an apprentice on the heavy side I was making 30$ straight time and all the OT I could work. And they wonder why they have a hard time convincing young guys to get into the Automotive trade. I can also with my class 1, go to work in the patch and make 100k a yr hauling water or doing hot-shot work. It's easy in Alberta to make 100K a year...but when the average house is 430k you have to make that much to live. Why do we all keep plugging away? Because we are all "gear heads" as you put it. I am only 28 and yes I think I know everything too, but I have been told I am the exception to the rule. Not many younger guys are true gear heads and want to learn. they all want more money, all the glory and won't put forth the effort to learn and do any training. In our shop the old saying holds true, the more you know, the less you get paid. We have 5 "diesel techs" incl myself. I am the only one trained. 1 will only work on 7.3 and only retail ones at that. The other 3 are spoon fed,have more comebacks than one can count, and flat rate books do not apply to them on retail repairs. I know it sounds like I am bitching, but it is like that where I am. Are there any other shops like that? Jim, what is the cost of living in SL? 40$hr, need any techs? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickBaker Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 If I may offer the point of view from one of the younger techs who recently left the dealer. There were a few reasons for leaving, mostly dealing with low traffic through the shop and all the corruption that involves. Another big factor was having no real opportunity for advancement(at that particular dealer). I made the transistion to an independent and couldn't be happier. Someone made a comment about how many techs UTI was turning out. As a UTI grad I can honestly say they aren't turning out any "techs", however, they are turning out a ton of know-it-all punks with resumes and shiny credentials. On a side note, I believe we need some other certification method here in the states. Maybe a government mandated certification would help boost our public perception. Of course we should all be doing our part to change the industry shouldn't we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 The friendly folks over at FRT initially started out to form a group to challenge or lobby (not sure which was their choice or if they even decided on choices) Ford and the slash and burn treatment of SLTs.... That turned into a quest to Onionize shops and then use bullying tactics to squeeze more dollars out of their shop. Any mention of persuing higher earnings through "merit" get treated with anything from disdain to hostility. At the same time, there are occasional murmurings asking about the government licencing we Canadian techs are subject to.... While no gaurrantee of trained, conscientious techs, it evens the playing field, prevents those abjectly unsuitable to the trade from entering it, allows recourse and ensures at least a basic set of knowledge and skills.... Alberta, at the very least, has a pretty strict labour code. For many states, I think an enforced labour code would alleviate many of the concerns I see techs mentioning.... Like I keep saying... if we want to be treated as professionals, we need to act and sound like professionals... we need to keep techs inadequate for electronics performing tasks more suited to their abilities..... and we need to make that brake job pay the tech less and that driveability concern to pay the tech more.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 If I may offer the point of view from one of the younger techs who recently left the dealer. There were a few reasons for leaving, mostly dealing with low traffic through the shop and all the corruption that involves. Another big factor was having no real opportunity for advancement(at that particular dealer). BINGO! We have a winner. The comments about mandatory National certification and doing our part in changing the industry I can support. Todays sighting of Mr.Know-it-all included a pinion being hammered out of an aluminum differential case with an air chisel. When asked why he commented that the press, a mere 75 feet away was "too far away." Ohh I cant wait until he comes over to my truck team. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickBaker Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 If not a government mandated certification then at least some major restructuring in ASE. I would really like to see some tv commercials or some kind of information from ASE telling John Q Public why he should choose an ASE certified tech to work on his vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron_Johnson Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Erick, When techs are first starting out, are they expected to work flat-rate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickBaker Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Not generally, most of the time new techs are put on hourly and used to do oil changes and such. At our dealer you slowly graduated from oil changes and brakes to harder work. And you worked on your own instead of being an apprentice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 ASE's i honestly believe are biased to GM's and thus im not for them. When i went to UTI majority of the courses touched on GM systems. They had a whole course on GM drivebility, then grouped another course of Ford and import. I am proud of going to UTI because that got me into FTI ( 8 kids a year taught in 10 years of class training in 6 months ). What still gets me to this day is the stupider you are, the more money you make. I actually get tired of doing mindless work. I hate flushes, brakejobs are ok, balljoints are ok. I love the challenge, but i hate explaining to the manager why i spent a day on a intermittant drivebility concern and Ford only pays you little. This is why Ford is in a slum IMHO. Repeat repairs... parts being thrown on cars because the tech needs to get paid for "the time he spent trying to get the vehicle to act up." You have guys who get pissed off because they arent getting paid for NPF's so they throw something on the car. THen it comes back for the same exact conern. More parts thrown on the car... Then you wonder why we see in bold yellow highlighted messages like " DO NOT REPLACE MAF's, O2's FOR LEAN CODES.." or " DO NOT REPLACE COILS WITHOUT A STRESS TEST, 90% of coils returned are good" Techs miss soo many steps and a lot of time overlooking the obvious because of SLT's. I catch myself getting flustered and pissed off because i have to make a certain amount of hours and i know ford wont pay shit to fix the trucks drivebility. But then i walk away, grab another ticket... come back to the truck, and figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 A long time ago, ASE tried making a plunge in to Canada.... I even ponied up the coin to travel to Edmonton to write some of their tests... Time constraints kept me from completing all of them but I did get an nifty certificate proclaimning me to be some kind of expert.... not hard to do given the questions asked.... Given the opportunity, I would give BOTH Tech A AND Tech B a sound thrashing for being idiots.... Interestingly, I received a mailing from ASE not five years later... telling me my knowledge was about to expire.... And I could get smart for only $50 a test.... How generous... 50 bucks a pop for multiple guess questions... with three answers so blatantly wrong that the fourth answer was a gift. I don't know of any system that is going to be perfect... political correctitude keeps me from telling an idiot that he is, indeed, an idiot... My teaching is a "tough love" style designed to get apprentices thinking for themselves. I gaurrantee that I will give them the "tools" to be "the best that they can be". I can drag the horse to the water trough... it's up to him if he's going to drink or not. But... if there were some sort of MANDATORY certification level, we would have less idiots to deal with... the scarcity of labour would improve the dollars paid which should improve the quality of the people attracted to this trade which should improve this trade and on and on.... As it stands right now, I believe that most states allow anyone with a $49.95 PEPBoys tool kit and a pair of coveralls to call himself a mechanic (correct me if I am wrong.... please!!!) and open up shop.... I am still registered with iATN and am amazed with the depravity I see.... People trying to fix things with no understanding of what it is they are trying to fix... Not only that, they wont purchase the documents they desparately need... they wont invest in the training they desparately need.... And. after they bag the poor shit customer for umpteen hundreds of dollars, they admit that the concern is under warranty, beyond their scope and maybe he should go to the dealer.... But, when we get to the dealer, is there a chance that maybe sales volume is the only thing that counts? Do we have someones brother in law as service manager? Do we have a shop busy enough to be shitty? Do we have a shop that is slow for good reason? The state of the trade today is a very complex equation... in many respects, it isn't an equation that can be broken down into little bits that can be resolved individually since each part of the equation depends on the other parts of the equation... So... the work we turn out as indi8viduals is the only way we get to make "our statement". Be the best that we can be.... if we break something, don't try to hide it.... if we screwed up, admit it... A very good friend of mine has a catering sideline... I often cook dishes for him either as a favour, getting paid "somehow" or just being invited to the "bash" (cooking and woodworking are two of my "escapes")... rule of thumb... don't serve a dish to your customer if you're not about to eat it yourself.... Too many techs expect their customers to accept things that they wouldn't accept happening to their own vehicles.... Case in point... A 6.0 sitting in one bay this very day... A new RETAIL motor installed not long ago.... Now... the cause for concern involves a piston cooling jet, a large chunk of piston and a large chunk of engine block from the bottom of #1 cylinder.... None of these is because of the previous tech.... However.... What about the broken fan stator - the missing stator stand-off from the lower right side.... the nut missing from the cooler line support at the right side of the engine... the broken FICM harness retainer... all this and more left behind by a "trained professional".... The tech working on it opined that he should go on the message board and speak his mind.... I told him that if he didn't, I would... and that it would probably be better if he did.... I think I'll go look after I close this tirade.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 22, 2007 Author Share Posted September 22, 2007 I'll be damned! Mr. Know-it-all quit today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Well it has been a long, hard five months since I started this topic. I am relieved and happy to report the hiring of a tech, a REAL Ford Diesel tech with training, experience and what seems to be a good attitude. Whats more I think he is a nice guy and should fit in nicely. He starts Monday! If that wasn't good enough news for me, my manager and I discussed hiring an apprentice, that too is a GO and that lucky young man gets hired on Monday if he passes the screening. Holy shit! Things are looking up! I just hope we didn't lose too many customers from turning them away and scheduling three weeks out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Attempt number 4.... Congrats on the new hires.... Just say a little prayer for me and my cluster of entry level people.... I have a story about a store in a state of flux.... a positive show of hands and I can make you guys feel great with my tale of woe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Keith..are you guys hiring....i'll send me application via email. I'm sure you guys could use a 23yr old good-looking tech to keep things motivated, LoL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron_Johnson Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Grandpa Jim do tell your story lol. Are you guys going through a bit of a staff turnover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Aaron... we've lost some good people to other industries over the last couple of years.... the reasons are both simple and complex and probably have as much to do with the state of society as with the state of our industry.... I'm working on a tale of woe as I write this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustedKnucklez Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Let me get your guys' opinion. I am a farely new tech. Yes, I graduated UTI like some of you, but never claimed to know it all (just most of it) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/king.gif jk. Anyway, Ive been flagging for almost 1 year. I make $20 Flat rate. I never make my 80 hours per pay period, while clocking 90-100 hours. I work hard and am very honest. I do my best, and the fact that I can count my rechecks on one hand since ive been flagging makes me feel like im a good tech. I do alot of crap work, i.e. heads, engines, cooling system concerns, coolers(oil, egr),oil leaks. My benefits are terrible. $850/month to cover me and the family(just medical). I declined it of course. So, all this and the jack ass that calls himself a diesel tech on the other side of the shop gets praised for flagging 150+ hrs, but doesnt fix shit. I got one of his rechecks. When I checked the history, this jack ass replaced the turbo once, and put 3 EGR valves in it. When I got it, after proper diagnosis, I found it had blown headgaskets, and a melted #3 piston. When I asked for a raise, the service director said he doesnt see why I should because "I dont see how diesel is any harder than a gas engine." /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif With a wife, 2 kids, and a mortgage I don't see any reason to continue to try and advance my dealership career when I can make better money in another field (mechanical repair of some sort), and quality, not quantity is important. Do you? Or am I being unreasonable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Well, your service director is an idiot. Unfortunately that is not an uncommon phenomenon, and the grass may not necessarily be greener at another shop. My advice: Keep doing a good job, keep taking on the difficult work and honing your skills. USE THIS PLACE as practice, and MANIPULATE them in to sending you to paid Ford classes. Get certified in a high end specialty like Diesel or Transmissions. Once you do, they will start to realize the death grip you have on their nuts. Keep checking the classifieds every week for a job at a place you would rather be, but dont just jump at one until you are sure it is right. Don't burn your bridges, but when the time is right, send out your fat resume, and inform your current boss what he will have to do in order to keep you...especially if this occours at a time when he is short handed. This is the only way your idiot service director will realize that of the two of you, YOU are the only one who can find work in the SKILLED labor section of the classifieds...and if he wants to keep you, he will need to pay a premium. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Jeff... you bring up a good point...... Our shop is lusting for knowledgeable (preferably licenced) techs.... Time and time again, the DP has come to me telling me of this wonderful new tech that he has hired.... but they never show up.... What I see happening.... The negotiations get to the point where the guy that is unhappy with his current position says "I'll take it...". The deal is set, his first day is agreed upon and he goes to his current employer to hand in his notice.... I know that <this> guy must be good because his current employer always seems to do something to change his mind... Downside.... if one ever does show up, I now have a big worry.... did his boss not sweeten the pie good enough and he really was looking for a change? Or did his boss simply look him in the eye... relieved that he didn't have to fire him? Being in a very sour mood after a very sour day during a very sour week... If we are talking youngsters - they all want the big bucks now.... maybe they might live up to it... maybe not.... Too often, when I say words like "think" or "read", I get that "deer in the headlights" look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I know what you mean Jim. Back in my country of America /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/boxing.gif we have an enormous baby boom generation that is starting to retire. We started to see a real shortage of talanted people for a while. Then Ford started closing dealerships by the hundreds (including my prior dealer - RIP Planet Ford of Minneapolis) and as a result there was a consolidation of techs. Only the strong survived, in fact, I am one of 5 senior masters at my current dealer, 5, now how unheard of is that. For a while there was a stack of applications on my SM's desk of unemployed Ford techs, and a real feeling of being disposable. Now, finally a certain level of normal has resumed, and I can see unfilled job postings in the paper agian. Infact, last week a dealer about 20 miles farther from home tried to recruit me. Having been through both scenarios, I think it is better when there is a shortage of techs, even though it is a lot more brain damage for those of us on the front lines. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/poke.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Being in a very sour mood after a very sour day during a very sour week... If we are talking youngsters - they all want the big bucks now.... maybe they might live up to it... maybe not.... Too often, when I say words like "think" or "read", I get that "deer in the headlights" look. It's not always the youngsters though Jim. Here I am trying to retrain the older dogs to actually open the "F@ck!n Book" and read. They will come to me and ask me how to do something and I always answer their question with the magic question: WHAT DOES THE BOOK OR COMPUTER SAY? I have punded it into the heads of the yunger guys to R.T.F.C(read the f@ck!n computer) and they are grasping the technology better than some of the not really all that old guys. Keep in mind that some of youngins are taught by complete IDIOTS. If you have the blind Idiots leading the blind you've got nothin but a disaster. But if you can have the new generation taught properly, you will have a good turn out of qualified knowlegeable technicians. Here, we have a couple of guys that bitch and whine and cry that they want to make as much money as a Master/Diesel certified tech but they won't do a damned bit of training and even try to learn. I compare our situation in this trade to DOCTORS and NURSES. If you want to be a full fledged doctor then get your ass in gear, apply yourself and do something about it. But if you want to be a girly little nurse and not take all the training that Doctor does, then accept the fact that you are nothing more than a nurse and will earn a girly nurses wage. I am this abrupt and harsh with this to make a point and hopefully get it through some of these thick skulls out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustedKnucklez Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 You all bring up very good points. But part of my situation is that I am diesel certified. I have all specialty certifications except auto and manual trans. I think my service director thinks he has us by the balls because 6 dealers in the greater L.A. area hve closed 2 of which were truck and fleet centers. I don't mean to sound like a whiney little bitch, but I guess I just need to vent with people that have an understanding for how difficult and time consuming our jobs really are. There are times that I want to do what I've seen some guys do like fix an oil leak with a can of engine bright and a pressure washer then flag the shit out of the ticket, and ship it. But, im just not willing to compromise my integrity to make a buck. I wasn't raised that way. Anyway, thanks for the opinions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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