Keith Browning Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 IN conjunction with the "Expectations" thread, I was thinking about what happened with the 6.0L. Personally, I did not receive ANY 6.0L specific training until last year when the web courses were posted and my dealer was forced to complete the diesel requirements. Poorly trained technicians STILL cause problems with not fixing trucks and causing customer perception of Ford and the dealers in general to be negative. I know we are not all that bad as technicians but this does affect us all. I for one am sick and tired of repairing trucks that another dealer and technician couldn't, or couldn't be bothered to fix! Many of us had to learn the hard way, myself included. Fortunately, I fared well over the last three years. I hope you did as well but... As part of the 2007 new model launch I REALLY hope for two things: One that Ford did their homework and learned a hard lesson with the 6.0L.. It would be nice to have most of the product testing done before the product launch. I don't want another problem laden product dumped on my lap for a second time. Ford made new model training MANDATORY for the LCF trucks before they could be ordered and I believe that would be a good idea with the new 2007 Super Duty as well. Second, I think it would be prudent to develop a training course just for the new engine - not just a soft new model training class. I want engines on a stand. I want to be able to remove the subsystems bolted to the engine and dissect them. I want a diagnostic session with an engineer. With the new technologies being utilized in a new high tech product I for one would like to be familiar with this engine BEFORE it hits the showroom floor. I want to be confident and professional in my support of the product. I want our customers to be confident in us and the product. I still believe Ford builds the best truck in the World. Let's prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Boy Keith you just want everything now, huh! I am guessing we'll get NMT and thats it, I could be wrong, but this company has a way of doing things backwards. I'm figuring that Ford will think if we are diesel certified and qualified, we'll be able to fix the '07 w/o any help from them. You have a valid point, but where as the LCF is a niche market vehicle, the Super Duty is used by every Tom,Dick,and Harry,oh,and can't forget Jane. It is a dealer's bread and butter. Here is hoping we will get training before the model launch! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 9, 2005 Author Share Posted December 9, 2005 Boy Keith you just want everything now, huh!/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/poke.gif It bears repeating that I don't think most of you understand the opportunity we have here to get some communication going among Ford, technicians and "others" within this private community we have here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Well, since Ford is considering a cab off procedure for repairs, I'm not getting my hopes up that the 6.4 has been thought out any better than the 6.0. As long as warranty times can be cut back and novel tool configurations can be used to perform repairs in cramped quarters there is little reason to change direction at this point. If training were mandatory would many tech's even want to work on the 6.4, after seeing how diesel techs are treated now? What is the incentive? When I started in this business over 20 years ago I fully believed the mantra, "the more you learn, the more you'll earn". Lately, it sounds more like, "Yeah baby, I'll still respect you in the morning". /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 It certainly does seem like the more you know the more crap that gets thrown in your direction. It's how you deal with it that makes the difference and each situation is as unique as each of us are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torqued_Up Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 You must be joking if you think they are going to do anything like that! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif It's a nice idea but I'll bet my next paycheck that Ford leaves us scratching our asses again and they have already convinced themselves that this engine is going to be perfect But just in case I had better retake the brake course just in case I get to do a brake job again some day! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 As far as the training goes it would be nice if you guys could get the training you need before the truck comes out but I know the FSE's still dont know when they are getting trained on it. There is still quite a bit of time before you will have to worry about it. I am a little curious why Ford coming up with a cab off procedure is such a big deal. Arent the trucks already repaired that way? Dont the majority of you beat the times because there isnt a Ford procedure this way. Dont take any of the latter comments the wrong way, I really dont know and I thought the current system would be to your advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 Originally posted by Cetane:Dont the majority of you beat the times because there isnt a Ford procedure this way. I don't know about anyone else,but I don't beat the times,I maybe break even. Frankly I lift the cabs, because I can perform the job as a normal human being, not some kind of circus sideshow freak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRStrokeMaster Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 I agree with everyone that we need some type of NMT before this unit hits the showroom. I also agree that times are very hard to beat unless you "work" the R/O or do shorcuts but claim full diag times. Even then you may just break even. It seems like ever since the 6.0L came out, good diesel techs are hard to come by. The ones that know how to make money have moved on to where they can, leaving gas drive techs, Service Managers and "helpers" repairing one of the most expensive and problematic engines Ford has ever owned (I say owned because International made this pile). As for everyone dreading the new 6.4 and future engines after that I say this; Ford knows they made a mistake with 6.0L. Hopefully they will not make another with the 6.4. I know the release date has already been pushed back to Jan 07 for the 6.4 and there will be 2 engine removal processes for regular pickups (cab off) and cab/chassis (cab stays). As far as training goes, one can only hope that we can get at least 2 techs from every dealer as a requirement to train on this engine. I highly doubt that Ford will require everyone who fixes a 6.4 to have NMT but there should be some minimum standard to uphold to be able to work and get paid by warranty. This would put the fire under Service Advisors and Shop Foremans to allow us to train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpatron Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Last week we were in sunny Dearborn reworking the 6.0 class to include the stuff learned over the years and remove the old 7.3 stuff. The discussions I was hearing seem to point to the fact that Ford learned their lesson from the 6.0 nmdl non-mandatory class. Of course, the trick is going to be getting engines and vehicles to experiment with to produce a relatively good,informative course. As far as long term concerns..... Regarding cab-off procedures: it seems everyone agrees it is just less strain. I am sure Ford will either pay to take it out or remove the cab (if it gets approved by NVH engineering). I am sure it just depends which is considered faster (as in lower warranty cost). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickBaker Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 It makes me feel a little better to see a lot of quality techs fell into the same trap I did. I come out of FACT with 3 weeks of 7.3 training and got the "hey you're diesel certified, we've gotta busted 6.0L for ya" screw job. Boy that was a struggle. I know how hard it was to work on this engine but, as with most things it gets easier with practice. Even though Ford did a lot wrong with the release of this engine, I believe they deserve a certain amount of credit for pushing the envelope. I feel this engine really is revolutionary. I think the 6.4L will be an awesome engine and the release can't go much worse than the 6.0l /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzltech Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 Well,does not seem that there is any formal 6.4 training in the near or maybe distant future,as with the 6.0-here it is fix it.Now I spoke with our fse last week and he told me that he has heard of no training lined up for the motor,it will be out no later than Janurary 07,they are blowing them up on the dyno,and rumor has it that anything more than an oil change will require cab removal,so the rumor also is that they may configure quick disconnects on the firewall and pin the cab on.....now agreed this is still rumor and preliminary,but I can believe it. Peace to all my mentally strained diesel brothers,and also physically abused diesel techs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgasman Posted April 27, 2006 Share Posted April 27, 2006 Just like Ford has the customers do their R+D, they will have the techs do their own training. On the topic of warranty times: It does not help that we have techs posting on the Ford PTS web site that, "I can do head gaskets on a 6.0 in 2 hrs". Ford sees that and will review the labor time standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 27, 2006 Author Share Posted April 27, 2006 It does not help that we have techs posting on the Ford PTS web site that, "I can do head gaskets on a 6.0 in 2 hrs". Some of the posts like that make you wonder. I think they are either full of themselves or full of shit! (whoops! I swore!) The one that really sticks in my mind is the tech that Ford watched perform a 6.0L R&I and he did it in 11+ hours, if I recall correctly. It takes me a full day just to get the engine out. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif I have mixed feelings about the Ford Message boards and I stay away from them for the very reason that I don't need big brother breathing down my back and I mostly don't like being told what I can and cannot post about or having post edited. That is not a free exchange of ideas. And as far as free is concerned we don't need to give away ALL of our little secrets now do we? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 27, 2006 Share Posted April 27, 2006 I remember when I first re-enterred the dealership fold... it was just before the release of the 6.0.... Before that, I new just enough about diesels to keep myself from getting in over my head... Change a GPR, maybe glowplugs on an IDI (as well as the odd chevy)... even managed to diag a couple of thermo-timers correctly. I had done a couple of diesel FMTs (designed for the 7.3 DIT) and then one day BANG!!!! A 6.0 with a noisey turbo (almost sounded like a tranny concern) and fuel/oil leaking out between the block and the dipstick.... They said "fix...". I said, "Do I know how???". Two other techs in the shop had the NMT course... Like kids in a whorehouse... we wanted to stare but were afraid to touch... We survived, and learned... and continue to learn. With or without Ford help, we can and will repeat the process.... Because we are all too proud of what we do to say "I can't do that....". ... We have a tech at a dealer in the next town that swears he can do a head gasket in 9 hours... needless to sat this guy is a dork of major magnitude... Been in a couple of training courses with him and I can say that he might be able to do it - but I wont let him fix my wheelbarrow... Pity the poor owner that has to drive something this guy has "fixed". I love the Canadian message board (we don't get to share, guys)... I've used verboten terms a few times, I guess... I've had more than one post taken to "review" by the "Fordthink" bot. Our usual tech instructor reads the boards every day but wont really admit to it... He tells me all I have to do is reply to a thread and it usually dies quickly... If we can keep Ma Ford out of this house, we can, at least, speak freely about any time cutting steps, home brew tools or what-have you. Let's not forget that Ford only pays for "wrench time" and having a really good product knowledge and careful preparation are keys to saving steps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwebb1981 Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I watched a class on ford star wednesday. During the Q&A part one tech asked when we are going to see info on the 6.4. One of the teachers said that they will try to have info on when the web training is going to be released by the next class which is sometime in may I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRStrokeMaster Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by gasgasman: It does not help that we have techs posting on the Ford PTS web site that, "I can do head gaskets on a 6.0 in 2 hrs". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I highly doubt there is anyone out there that can do a "QUALITY" head gasket repair in 2 hours. I know that there are lots of guys out there removing the cab and I hear once you get it down you can have the cab off in 45 minuets. after that I could see doing the gaskets in 2 hours plus reinstalling the cab for another 45. so maybe 4 in hours you could have it done and still have a quality job. I remember when I used to work on 6.5 chevys replacing injection pumps all day long. It paid 6.5 hrs to do the pump and time it and I could have it done in 2 hours if I had all the parts ready. This was after doing lots of them however. I know there are lots of techs out there that swear the labor times are bunk while there are pleanty more that claim they can make a killing on them. If you can beat em, great for you. keep it up, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif just don't go posting it on a Ford site or it will be even harder for the rest of us to argue the point. just my 2 cents. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGM Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Well guys, the latest info I have seen is still prety old... It is coming as an '07(no choice)in January(maybe /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif .... The problem with a class addressed directly at the techs is that even though Ford tests these things, the customer always tends to do something unexpected and helps to bring out something else never seen before.. If you remember from the 6.0L NMDL class, the BIG thing was to cut the gasket from the covers so you dont break the bed plate seal.. Of course, the word got out and it wasnt really an issue, but allot of the other stuff (for whatever reason) wasnt addressed.. The idea is that no one knew.. How can you train to repair something that has never broken before? Or maybe it only happened once during testing.. So, once they get 300,000 trucks on the road(over the first year) the sample rate is many thousand times larger than testing could have ever been.. The 6.0L has issues.. The 7.3L had issues.. The 6.4L will have issues.. We all know that, all we can do is hope they arent that bad.. But we are in the business to fix broken stuff, so if it doesnt break, we're out of business.. The only recomendation I can give is to take alot of the stuff you hear about the 6.4L with a grain of salt..I have seen several of them, they have all been different in one way or another.. So, the only true info will come after Job 1.. Because of this, training will (hopefully) be about the same time as the launch.. I understand it will be a NMDL class(at 1st) along with some sort of web training(again, hopefully).. There will be an engine and a truck available, you will surely be able to disassemble it like the 6.0L NMDL(most of you guys havent seen because it wasnt manditory).. All we can do is wish for the best.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGM Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I know there are lots of techs out there that swear the labor times are bunk while there are pleanty more that claim they can make a killing on them. If you can beat em, great for you. keep it up, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif just don't go posting it on a Ford site or it will be even harder for the rest of us to argue the point. just my 2 cents. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif Amen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torqued_Up Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Yeah, I agree with that point too. I remember when the R&I time for the 6.0L was a big topic and some guy performed the operation at the dealer he worked at I think. Then He got snotty in an interview stating that "we" need to pay attention to all of the other things we do during the day that wastes time. EAT ME! It still takes me a day to get one OUT no less swapping parts and installing it! Hey, I know that there are some guys that seem to be really quick, no offense inteneded when I say many of them are hacks. If I say a 6.0L swap done in 11/12 hours I would look it over REAL good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpatron Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The one that really sticks in my mind is the tech that Ford watched perform a 6.0L R&I and he did it in 11+ hours, if I recall correctly. It takes me a full day just to get the engine out. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif I wonder if that is the one where the guy mouthed off that he could NO WAY make the time. SLTS sent a team to watch him and (the way they told us) he worked as slowly as he could and STILL beat the time.Don't remember if that was engine r+r or just turbo... As far as training, we are supposed to be reviewing preliminary web courses soon, and in August we get to travel to beautiful downtown Dearborn to start reviewing some classroom material. I think January is sounding about right for the classroom course release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Our FSE says a Jan release on the motor,NMT sometime before that. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Job 1 for the '08s is the first week in January although KTP has been building prototypes for a while now. Hopefully service engineering comes up with a good program for you guys, its going to be fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 ...its going to be fun! I hope I'm not being paranoid but my Factory Rep was in last week and said that the new diesel is delayed because of problems, and I quote: "It's no better than the one we have now." I really want to believe that Ford is making an effort to ensure that this is not the case. He even said that when International had handed us the 6.0L it was a good engine before the Ford engineers gotten their hands on it. I've heard that exact statement before several times but I am not really sure what it means. What did Ford DO to the engine? (beside crank up the horse power and the RPM's) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I'm feeling a little bit queasy! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/puke.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 I cant speak about the 6.0's differences, it was before my time. I could repeat things I have heard but I havent worked on enough of both varieties to be able to say for sure. I am not sure why this "delay" is making such big news lately. Everyone knew this was going to be a January intro for quite some time now. Some base engine things have changed in the past couple months but I think the majority of the problems is with the emissions systems not the engine itself. I dont know of any base engine failures in quite some time. That being said meeting emissions is still proving difficult and its only getting harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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