Jim Warman

Dwayne... in my first reply to this thread, I stated to the effect that I would expect the store to pony up something for his time... I'm not sure if or how that fact might have gotten lost.... Flat rate reading? In this customers case... the truck "sounds" like it is in the B to B warranty (it hasn't been stated but, since the vehicle was released on the 'promise' of a repair appointment, one has to assume this is the case). The customer is looking for something for "free"... well, he did pay for the warranty in the purchase price of the truck.... and I would hazard a guess that this repair should be "free" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif ? For my part, I would prefer a customer to return to his selling dealer (even though Ford stresses the "universal" aspect of the waranty). Store X offers red carpet service and well trained people with good tools... Store Z doesn't give a rats ass. Store X has to pay for that red carpet service somehow and that will usually reflect in the selling price. Store Z lowballs the selling price, hands you your keys and tells you to fuck off and bother store X if you expect anything more. We all have people looking for stuff for free or trying to pay as little as they can for as much as they can get.... this isn't a dealership thing.... When I was in my own store (read that as self-employed), somebody would read me the riot act because I expected to be paid for hardware and wire and such... I'd look them in they eye and ak them if "wire was something I should buy by the roll so I could give it away by the foot".... But this isn't about someone looking for free shit... this is about a guy that simply wanted his truck (apparently still under warranty) to work.... Where is the scheme to get something for nothing? Did they have to back the mileage up on the RO? Nobody has indicated this as a fact.... In this case, isn't the customer entitled to a "free" repair? There's a TSB on the concern so it can't be something too out of line... WTF? I empathize with Mike... I've said that I think his store should pony up for his time... SEVERAL TIMES! But someone is going to have to explain to me how we are going to get a customer to part with his coin of the realm to ensure that he will come back for something that is going to be a warranty repair..... My loving bride is topsy-turvy over KitchenAid appliances... Our barely one year old range needed a new cooktop... still covered under warranty. After checking supply and such... the repair guy told me nearly two months before it could be replaced. Oh, we could still cook on it... it just didn't work absolutely right (kinda like having a 4X4 that doesn't go into 4WD). If he had asked for money to ensure that he was going to get the repair, my house would be full of another brand of appliances in a heartbeat. The car I bought for the love of my life still has two years and nearly 90,000 kms of base warranty left. If she was passing Innisfail and the MIL came on and she stopped by your store and you didn't have the part(s) needed on hand but the car was OK to drive... how much would your store charge me? Am I looking for free shit? Am I a bad customer if I don't think my wife needs to spend one or two days in a motel in Innisfail? All I'm after is a car that works as it should and a wife that is at home, safe and sound... I don't want your free shit... all I want is what is owed to me.... warranty coverage. Ask customers to pay up front for an obvious warranty repair? They will start staying away in droves..... FWIW... if you bought from us, we will try to cover those "iffy" things... Door froze shut and you pulled on the handle too hard? No problem.... If there's a chance you might buy from us in the future... there's a good chance you'll leave smiling... Obvious mistreatment or lack of service..... Good luck, Charlie. But that isn't the case in this thread, is it? One more time for the record.... Like I said... I think Mikes dealership should pony up for at least some of his time... Did I forget to mention that I think Mikes store should come good for a realistic payment for his efforts? Sheesh....

Dwayne... In Mikes case, the customer "escaped"... diag is done... part is ordered... the repair is warranty... appointment made... And then, for some reason, the house of cards comes tumbling down... Charge for a diag under warranty and you are going to have Ford all over you like hair on an ape... While we desparately need to be profitable and ensure the earnings of our techs... we desparately need to be sure we aren't pissing people off in the process... or pissing Ford off in the process... One would think that there would be some code of ethics (written or unwritten) between dealerships regarding these sorts of situations... Apparently, it's dog eat dog.... in the abscence of any real way to control it (other than charging people for shit that should be free to them), all we can do is deal with it and move on... To most of our customers, we aren't <Anytown> Ford Sales... we are FoMoCo. Fair and equitable don't enter the thought process when all you can think about is your $50,000 truck that doesn't work right. We're techs... unless it is a warranty chargeback for some improper or ineffective repair... we shouldn't have to worry about the customer pulling up stakes and moving the repair to a different store. It's not the techs fault that parts are on order... it's not the techs fault that the shop is booked three weeks. Did the old fart take an about face? No... the problem is far too complex to address in some simple "fits all" manner. One thing for sure... if the word get's out that we are charging for warranty diag with the promise for reimbursment if we get the repair... it shouldn't take long for us to stop worrying about shop back-log.... At least we'll finally have time for waxing our toolboxes...

Kieth... I meant no disrespect. I realize that there are many things at play, here... Mike has every right to be pissed at what happened... But who can he get pissed at? A lot of things didn't go right, a lot of things did go wrong... But where does the fault lie. This is a complex circumstance... given that the customer opted to go back to dealer A and let them ORDER the part sounds odd... very odd. Mike filled in some blanks that I didn't realize were there.... And it now appears that Cruikshank Ford is an inadequate dealer (uh-oh... I'm stepping on toes again). One would have to wonder how they can conduct business if this is "de rigeur". As far as the OASIS mention... Mike opened the door and I wasn't busting anyones chops.... Checking OASIS early in the diag is a must.... If I am wrong, someone is going to have to point out why. Shit goes bad.... I've seen it go bad when it wants to for nearly 40 years... If it looks like I'm gloating... bust MY chops... If it looks like I'm offering constructive advice - WTF? I spent a lot of time aching for a resource like this... and I see guys that don't make the fullest use of it that they can... or at the time they should... This is something that we CAN fix.... And for that reason alone, we should. Given the info as presented, I don't feel I have spoken out of turn and I don't feel my sidebar was unjustified.... I am not passing judgement on Mikes process, I only intend to help improve it. If this is bad.... ????

Ahhhhh, the devil is in the details.... I'd be posting the name of the other dealer (dealer A) loud and wide.... They can't diagnose a concern? They can't use OASIS to their benefit (even though the TSB lists the part number)? And they can't read the parts catalogue? They have fallen down at least three times that I can figure... and the customer returns there? There's gotta be more to the story.... this is too strange to be true....

Aaron... the furthest thing from my mind was a "cheap shot".... We have this valuable resource... and it is, I firmly believe, under-used. We can all bitch about shrinking SLTs... but that only proves that we need to work smarter instead of harder.... Back in the day (oh, how I love that term), we could listen to a car or drive it or feel it.... maybe take a manifold vacuum reading or watch the spark snap from a plug wire to ground and make a complete diag... Those days are gone.... long gone. It didn't take a whole bunch to repair an abacus... but now we are dealing with computers....

Stupid customer trick.... yes.... But there is nothing binding him to us once the process is started. All he wants (and deserves) is a truck that works... Let's look at happenstance (and we still don't know where the customer bought the truck from)... Did dealer A send the truck to dealer B with the idea that dealer B could fix it..... probably. Dealer B didn't have the part... so maybe the customer phoned dealer A (who just might have been the selling dealer) asking what to do? Dealer A has the part... well... "lets git-er-dun!!". I may be missing something with my obsolete views, but I figured that the first order of the day was a "happy customer". These people seem to make life a tad better.... Happy customer doesn't always mean happy tech/shop/store/whatever... Nobody ever promised me a rose garden and there are times I just suck it up.... If I am looking for a particular product and store A can't help me, I might order in the object of my desire.... If I later see that store B can fix me up on the spot... what am I to do? Go without because of some sense of propriety? Is it right that a customer should "shop around" to find resolution to his concern? What could be wrong about it? Does performing a diagnosis constitute a binding contract? If dealer A couldn't diagnose the concern.. we have a problem. Mike is in Canada.... Dealer A cannot perform mechanical repairs without a journeyman on premises. If that journeyman can't fix something this simple... then dealer A has a very real problem on their hands. I don't think that this started as any kind of collusion... but somewhere along the line, it developed a bad smell.... But the fact remains. The customer is happy.... and part of the reason he is happy is because he had freedom of choice.... (something about democratic principals and rights and freedoms and shit like that). OK... so it didn't go well for one of US... Are we going to hire lawyers and sue because the freemarket system is a bad system? Is everything we do going to be silently bound by some unwritten code of ethics? The menu said I was going to enjoy my meal and I damned well better enjoy it because the chef said so? Life ain't fair... never was, never will be (watch "Animal Planet" and see that cute little whatever get ripped apart by something bigger, faster and hungry). Or is there a chance that people are missing my statement about the shop ponying up for the lost time? Who matters the most? Me? Or my customer? Gawd.... I don't believe we are having this conversation......

In another thread, we see a tech innocently get caught up in a diag gone sideways.... see "Do you guys think this is right?". Now, I don't know how much time he has into this job... but it does look like he started checking stuff in an order that wasn't as fruitful as it could have been.... And that brings us to OASIS... how and when should we use this resource? I'm not much of a TV watcher so some of my time is spent just furbling around looking for stuff to read. And I have come across TSBs for the goofiest stuff.... every day (for those that bother with broadcast messages), we see some another TSB "announced".... and this has driven home a singular point.... Check OASIS for EVERYTHING!!!! Not wanting to offend Mike, but wanting to improve things all the same, let's pick that deal apart.... Step one would be verify the concern.... Simple enough... Next, since a module is involved, we check for codes.... The we go to OASIS... select the appropriate condition codes and add any DTCs we have (better yet, use OASIS Quick Start) to the list. We will be presented with a lot of info.... warranty status, repair history (more important than some think), open recalls (easy money), TSBs and SSMs. Look at it this way.... we get into a PPT and we get to a part about checking at a difficult to reach connector or ice and snow or mud get in the way... or we get involved in one of Fords inadequate tests... in frustration, we throw up our hands and consult OASIS... only to find the job we have 2 hours into pays 0.7 on a TSB... worse - if we had been sharp, we might even have gotten a couple of points of gain time out of the deal. Sh!t happens in this business... it is up to us to make the best of it for ourselves... Learn how to use our wits and our resources... How many times a day does anyone think I say "Did you check OASIS?"?

Mike... it ain't right.... no amount of conjecture is going to make it right... but who are we going to blame for the circumstance.... The customer.... all he's after is getting his 4WD working.... It appears that the truck is still under warranty.... Is he "your" customer to begin with? Or is he one of Fords customers and you just happened to be there.... It's not supposed to make a difference, but we all know that it does. In his defence... he did call to say that his concern was being addressed to his satisfaction. Most guys in a similar situation wouldn't have offered that courtesy. The parts department.... is this a part that they should be stocking but don't? Is it a part that they regularly stock but screwed up on? Why did one dealer in your area have the part but your parts department didn't? If they search the P/N, do their numbers show how many "turns" this part has had in the last 12 months? Did they contribute to the fiasco? Your service department... surely they have no control over what went on.... How far down the road did they schedule the repair? Is there something they could have done differently? Your part in the deal (and you can smell a sidebar coming, right?)..... how much time did you have into the deal? The TSB (only one of several "advices" on F150 4X4) only pays 0.9. I would think that, in a case like this, the service department should pony up something to make you feel a little better about the deal.... Without the R&R and retest, it ain't gonna be a whole bunch... but it should be something.... The sidebar..... well, there isn't one... but let's take a peek at the new thread "OASIS".....

Larry, this is the same book we carry in the fire apparatus.. doesn't go much in to chemical make-up but it is great when you need to know what to do in a hurry

MSDS sheets can often be difficult to decipher.... for additional help, you can try THIS

I can't speak for the US or even other stores in Canada... I've had a great deal of luck us terms like "suspect" (not as a verb). Most warranty repairs can be described in mono-syllabic terms... but there are times when it becomes most beneficial to extrude those larger than life words from the depths of our functional brain areas and blow the dust off them. Most claims that enter that "limbo" between accept and reject are given to me... a bit of polishing... throwing in a few $5 words were a 25 cent word should have worked.. and you're in like Flint. I think that the desk jockeys at nazi headquarters are too embarassed to admit that they can't understand what I wrote. As usual, I digress.... I think that taking the time to induce a failure in the EGR cooler would be both time consuming and dangerous for anyone attempting it... Saving grace... EGR coolers have a high incidence of failure. Ford, for the most part, hasn't been requesting their return for inspection. But I would suggest checking service history before we "suspect" ourselves into a problem....

Word to the wise... there is a vast difference between "pushing" the envelope and ripping it wide open.... I have yet to read a EULA... I can't hardly make it three lines into all that lawyer-babble without reaching for my dear old friend.... I know that we aren't allowed to desconstruct the application to reveal the source code.... But... what if we viewed some ..... ummmmm, features - as home grown "plug-ins".... I haven't yet had the need to bypass the VID-block... but I might have one in the shop as we speak... (an 06 with a new cluster that wants to be identified as an 03/04). Forcing a module or network into performing an "unnatural act" is a hazy area.... If your reasons or reasoning smell bad to you, they will stink to high heaven when they reach someone that matters....

Greg has stated things so eloquently.... And he is absolutely right.... So many years ago, I was cocksure that I was Gods gift to the trade.... Bold as brass, I was... Like Greg and like you, Tony, I finally saw the light - I knew what I knew... but rarely applied it to what I was doing.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif Then, I started on the road to maturity... not sure how my progress is, but I'm doing pretty good.... For you, it's a fairly recent thing.. and that is what you need to downplay... Sure... you may have a lot of beefs... but you need to attack them individually and separately. Not to mention calmly and with good reason at hand.... <why> they shouldn't do something spoken in realistic terms... <why> they should do something, also in realistic terms... don't try to couch anything in assumptions... state facts.... An audit that shows you were "double clocking" is going to earn people a real slap on the wrist and put your service dept. under a microscope. If you make your displeasure known, you have a defence... tenuous, perhaps... but as long as they can't attribute personal gain to you for the practice, you should be good to go... Address each issue individually and in turn... If you cloud a meeting with multiple topics, you might return to the appearance of a "trouble maker" and loose what you might have gained over the past months... A lot of managers don't like having shortcomings brought up.... these same managers deal with an odd mix of "budget" and "profitability" usually forgetting some important considerations along the way. We used to have one service manager that repeatedly told me I know nothing about this business... She's gone.. I perservered. Some DPs or general managers don't take kindly to mixing with us mere peasants... But if yours are approachable, it helps to develop a rapport with them. Discuss things in a way that highlight benefits to the dealerships profitability and CSI scores... And the single most important thing to remember.... nobody ever promised any of us a rose garden.... and we certainly aren't going to get one. Like a tree... if we can bend with the wind, we will survive... if we remain steadfast and unmoving.... Yesterday, I was in shit because my production is down... today I was in shit because my "green team" is making too many mistakes.... Back to what triggered your initial post... the best you're going to hope for is the other tech to regain his certs as quick as possible... This should become one of your managers missions... After that, you can attack some of the other issues that concern you... remember... present them in a light that will show benefit to the shop....

Not sure if I'd want to try it myself... when we start to limit our freedom of movement... things can go wrong... add the opportunity to introduce dirt in the process.... If we are quoting to do this retail... we should quote enough to make it worth our while to do it right the first time.... If we don't, we can always do it for free the second time... If it is warranty pay.... One tech did injector cups without removing the head but quoted the "required" labour ops.... Warranty asked for the gaskets and bolts to be returned... No appropriate gaskets to be had.... The claim was rewritten to reflect the method used... and denied as not being the WSM approved technique.... If we come up with a shortcut that will receive "approval".. somewhere along the line, some Einstein will try to look like a hotshot and spill the beans... SLTs will be adjusted. Some shortcuts will never receive "approval"... and there are sure to be some that we wish had never received "approval". (You really want to see me trying to snap that little sleeve over the IPR to appreciate that comment). Perhaps my narrow views on integrity and honesty are well considered.

Wow!!! Doesn't anything SIMPLE happen any more? This a bad situation and it's going to take some care to avoid turning it into a worse situation.... FWIW, and if it's any consolation, I'll bet that this sort of behaviour is more prevalent than we'd like to think. No matter how we try to dress it up, it's misrepresentation at the very least and might even be fraud. It would be nice to get a real feel for your current situation... what you have for a comfort zone when it comes to "mentioning" something, "asserting" something or having the veins in your temples pound... To begin with, the SM should have talked to you about it.. you are unwittingly involved so you have a clear concience, anyway. But, the damage has already been done..... even though him digging the hole deeper isn't going to help. So let's take a look at the first thing that needs to happen to fix the situation (short of using the wheels on your toolbox). What's it going to take to get the other techs certification re-instated? Is he currently working towards it? For your part... are you mad because they're doing it? Or are you mad because they didn't ask first (don't get me wrong, you have every right to be mad)? Lunch is over and it's time for me to head back the salt mines... Chew on this a bit and let's revisit the topic at the end of the day...

read on top of the 0W30 barrel... " Synthetic ".

I think Jeff is going to have to apply his powers of observation to this one.... It certainly smells like a cup or sealin washer issue.... especially if the injectors drop out one at a time in a progressive fashion. The cup/washer route is only one of the possible scenes... Could be that setting up for the balloon test is allowing things to "normalize". Suggestion... when the truck dies and the secondary filter bowl is empty... fill it with clean fuel immediately and crank the engine (either with the starter feed or with the fuel pump disabled) looking for bubbles in the filter bowl. I can't remember who posted this idea, but it is SWEET. It's quick, we already know what side is affected and we can avoid some of the changes that a hot soak might induce. Interesting that #3 is missing from his code list.... this is usually the first one to see concerns..

You guys just HAVE to see THIS

I fudged up... but I caught it and fixed it.... Read my last line carefully (one of that flat rate reading). And remember, no matter how hard you try, you can't end a sentence with the word "the".

Larry, you hit the nail on the head.... I don't think that there are many stores out there that haven't gotten into the LOF with a multipoint inspection with the idea that they are going to upsell work... But soon, the idea get's forgotten... "Oh my Gawd... look at all these oil changes in the holding pattern... we better hire a "loob teck".". And then the whole great scheme is lost... the whole "raison d'etre" is forgotten.... and we are now giving away free oil and filters... except when someone with some common sense has one along with the rest of his RO. FWIW... sounding like Jim isn't such a bad thing now, is it.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif On edit.... friggin' typos.... Always proof read your post to be sure left something out.

Don't get me wrong Steve... I think we all put them down at one time or another.... usually just after they don't give us a "magic bullet"... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

A lot of the things the manual and/or other documents has us do is because they can't find an engineer to sign off on doing it any other way... Looking at the SLT for HGs, it doesn't look like they've allowed the time for it.... I would hazard a guess that they "know" we aren't removing the injectors... if something were to go bad from the practice, they can charge us back on improper technique and the engineers are "safe". Some days you're the dog... and some days you're the hydrant.

Steve, we need to remember that the first hotline hears of some of these concerns is when we call them... If they get one or two complaints, that might be "business as usual". When the complaints start growing, the engineers give the concern a priority (might be bottom of the list, might be near the top). We get stuck with whatever they give us.... for me, hotline is having me change parts needlessly - at least I have the appearance of "doing something". This will, eventually, turn into "take no action - engineering is investigating". This is a bad place to be.. the customer assumes we are blowing him off and using excuses.... (some people still shoot the messenger). We hope and pray it doesn't turn into the PCM "reflash of the week" debacle like we had with the 6.0. All in all, other than the fuel consumption issue, the 6.4 launch has been a vast improvement over other FoMoCo diesel launches...

I kinda figured that Lew wouldn't be able to stay away.... I can't be much help with menu pricing... Many of our prices charge the customer an amount that doesn't really reflect what a tech get's paid.... A Sooper Doody alignment is going to cost the customer in steps... Base alignment (caster sweep plus toe and clear vision adjust) pays tech 1.3 but the customer cost is less than one hour. Adjust caster/camber (per side) adds 1.0 to the techs pay. A "full meal deal" (base align plus caster/camber X2) will pay 3.3 hours but get billed at barely more than 1.5 (plus slugs). The idea is to remain competetive (within reason) with independants and the big bozes while paying the tech what he deserves for the job... This can be a very fine line to tread as we look at what keeps techs happy and what is profitable for the store. The rub... we all need to cultivate the retail work we have.. and we all need to attract more retail work.... At some point and on some labour ops, the store is going to have to bend a little. We are the dealer... we hjave tools and knowledge (or should have) that the "other guys" don't.... we charge more and our customers deserve more.... But for LOFs and other maintenance operations, we can't be busy pricing ourselves out of the market... But when it comes to diag.... it can get gnarly.... What can we charge for diag time? Give an idiot a good scan tool and you still have an idiot. Give a good man a good scan tool and he can still get side tracked (look at my P2563 thread - not that I consider myself "good"..... but I try to make myself believe I'm not an idiot, either...). Our best techs should be doing the diag.... our not so best techs should be doing the grunt work.. problem being that these will overlap.... and I don't know of anyone that likes to finish what someone else has started. So... for diag, menu pricing can be "make or break". We know that we should be able to spin circles around independants. But we don't want to price ourselves out of the running. And this is where we should get together and have some input. Every PPT ends with us replacing something expensive if we take it right to the end. Following the PPT has us do tests that we wouldn't normally do if our heads are screwed on right... but, it is the factory manual that will be the model we will be judged by. If I'm smart enough to load test all the powers and grounds to a module instead of farting around testing the way the PPT tells me, should I be penalized or rewarded? (Example to follow). Diag has become a specialized area... whether it is an automatic engagement concern, oil consumption or any other of dozens of symptoms. My local experience shows that diagnosticians are hard to find. Should diag time cost more? Yes... but if we are gong to do that, we need the right guy doing it... The follow up.... The PPTs have us using a voltmeter to test open circuit voltage on a B+ wire... what a crock.... The same PPT has us testing resistance to a ground.... Try this.... unplug the module.... insert a load between the B+ and the ground. A headlight works pretty good. If the headlight doesn't come on, volt drop the power side and the ground side. Something I'm going to try using a 1 ohm, 10 watt resistor. Install your resistor in the circuit as the "load". Snap your low amp probe around the resistor. Depending on B+, you should see between 11 and 14 amps. Don't have a low current probe? Put your "load" in series with a length of wire coiled 10 times. Snap your AVR probe around part of the coil so that the wire passes through the probe 10 times (without doubling back on itself). Divide your reading by 10. Don't have an amp probe? Install the resistor and perform proper volt drop testing. Kieth... if this is inappropriate here, do something, I guess....

Hotline tells me that this is a concern that engineering is investigating and we might see "something" on it in the near future. But thanks for filling in that memory gap on the VGT actuator... For some reason, I still vaguely recall something about the communications being bidirectional and position was reported over the CAN buss... unless I have somehow confused this with the EGR valve? But that does explain the EBPs involvement.... Now that leaves that other little "nugget"... PC/ED calls this a concern with the boost sensor A circuit performance/range (memory warning) and takes us straight to the VGT actuator and lists the only possible causes as the PCM, the actuator, the power supply wires and the CAN buss wires. That's asking for a LOT of "assumed knowledge" from any old guys suffering from CRS. The introductions to PPTs in the new manual leave something to be desired when compared to the older PC/EDs.