Cetane

I have seen reports on a couple websites of people seeing "factory" built trucks without a DOC or DPF. Since I consider this forum to be pretty truthful, I am wondering if anyone here has seen an '08 super duty without that emissions equipment.

Well that is true for the most part but you also need lots of heat in the exhaust for the upcoming exhaust aftertreatment to be efficient. The harder the engine works the more heat the exhaust sees.

I dont know what is going to happen between the two. I am not that close to the negotiations. Being on the Ford side, of course I think we have a strong case but that doesnt mean there will be a ideal solution. I do know what the contingency plan is and either way is fine by me. I think ITEC needs us more than we need them, whether they realize it now or not. In any case we will not be left in the cold.

This news is no surprise to people who are familiar with the situation. It has been brewing for some time now. There is a contingency plan that has been in the works for awhile now.

I just wanted to take some time and congratulate FD on 1000 registered members. Considering the exclusivity of the member audience this is a great accomplishment. I for one appreciate all the hard work you have put in over the past couple years. Heres to future success!

For those of you that actually have some '08 PSD's what are you being told in respect to an actual date that it can be sold/delivered? Just curious what rumors are flying.

Although I have minimal testing experience your statements seem to be generally true. There was an SAE paper last year some time dealing with biodiesel and its effect on DPF regeneration. There were some interesting results. That test procedure yielded somewhere around a 50% reduction in HC with only a approx. 5% increase in NOx. The most noticeable finding was the discovery of a much lower DPF balance point. I believe it was somewhere around 20C lower for B5 and 100C lower for B20 on a heavy duty test cycle. Of course you run the risk of fuel system damage for the reasons you stated. It is interesting reading if you have access to SAE papers. For that matter there are a ton of studies in the SAE database relating to biodiesel and its effects on the fuel system and emissions in general.

First off, I want to apologize for coming on a little strong with my first post. It was a rough week on the development front and we are losing people(luckily not me) which makes the job even tougher. It has been a while since I have had to lay a wrench on these trucks especially one that has a irate customer behind it. I should have taken my own advice and looked at the big picture. I acknowledge that the service procedures have not been as linear as they probably should have been but that was partly because of the reasons I listed earlier. Unfortunately this makes you guys look bad. Just as unfortunate, I think you will see similar things happen with regards to the new aftertreatment system on the 6.4L. We have put so much work in to this new engine that it is hard to imagine any problems will surface but, as I am sure you all know, it is impossible to be everything to everybody. Hopefully some of the variables that are out of our control will be lessened but some how I doubt it. On a seperate note, what became of the chat room suggestion?

I certainly did not mean to discourage people from expressing their opinions or experiences. I just wish that sometimes people would sit back, look at the big picture and comtemplate their posts before submitting. Maybe I am in a unique position because I have been on the line and now see things from the inside. To be honest I dont think anything I said should be much of a surprise. Maybe that is a mistake on my part. I certainly dont want to portray an image of engineering up here on a "high-horse" that just leaves techs hanging out to dry. There is a myriad of reasons why things played out the way they did and it would be irresponsible of me to print them on the internet. I will not continue to argue the faults of the 6.0L, we all know them and I cannot defend my position well without revealing things I am not willing to divulge. Along those lines and in keeping with the subject of this thread, the article referenced does not paint a clear picture of reasons behind the lawsuit. As always politics plays a big part and it is a part you will likely never hear about.

Well, I had a long response typed out for this thread but I decided not to post it. Frankly, sometimes you guys' posts are down right insulting. You have no idea the work it takes to "fix" the problems that the 6.0L had. Those "bandaids" were the best engineering could do to on short notice to meet conditions that did not occur during durability testing. These fixes didnt just have to fix problem they also have to work with the existing framework. Emissions, driveability, durability and safety with every model combination has to tested to make sure it still meets the requirements you suggest we just threw out there. It is pretty naive to think Ford saved any money by issuing multiple TSB's on the same issue. The fact is until the permanent fix could be throughly tested, stop gap fixes had to be issued to keep the trucks on the road. Is Ford without blame, absolutely not, but there is much more to this situation than you will ever know. The fact is ITEC is trying weasel out of things agreed to in the contract. This is due to a variety of factors. Some of the reasons will become clear in the future, some not. I never understood why people assume the process to fix a problem is as simple as a new part, cal or procedure. The fact is the problems that surfaced took time to fix correctly and that is why you are seeing vastly improved trucks today than in '03.

This is a pretty well kept secret even within Ford. I doubt anyone will talk about it at this point. Its hard to say what the final outcome will be but there is a lot more to the story than this article outlines.

I am not sure if anyone has brought this up but there is an interesting article in the chicago tribune today. It may have future implications.......... http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0701120110jan12,0,394060.story?coll=chi-business-hed

Ahh yes, how the vehicle is used.... I cant wait to hear you guys' stories about power adders and the effect on the exhaust system. I can see people plugging them up solid and not being able to regen them. When I lean on the A/F it can get ugly in a hurry. Does anybody have one onsite yet?

I finally got back to work today to check on this and it looks like service engineering is predicting somewhere around 120,000 miles the DPF will have to be "serviced". Obviously this will vary with the type of usage the truck sees....

We tend to be very hard on the engines and overall they have been pretty reliable. As far as oil leaks go I dont remember anything major happening but we go through engines pretty fast so if it was a problem that occurs at higher mileage it may still be present. That being said there has been significant effort placed on making sure this is a robust design. Hopefully everyone has done their jobs and we wont see the kinds of issues the 6.0L experienced. I didnt realize the coffee table book hadnt been released yet. I probably wouldnt have said anything about it. I would guess they will be available soon but I am not sure how they are distributed to techs.

I think there is something about it in the 6.4L coffee table book. I will try and find it today. In the 3+ years I have been in development of this engine I havent seen one plug up with ash even when running engines that burned a ton of oil.

The data decodes as follows: RPM-self explanitory FUP-Fuel Pressure FUP_SP- Desired Fuel pressure AMP- Ambient pressure CAN_BPA_PSN- VGT position CAN_BPA_PWM- PWM position of VGT TOIL- Oil Temp EGBP- Engine backpressure EBGP_REL_AMP- EGBP vs ambient pressure EGBP_SP-backpressure desired PCV_CTL- Pressure control valve (fuel) MAF&MAP- self explanitory MF_SLM- mass fuel smoke limit MF_TOT- mass fuel total TBA- temperature of either intake or ambient( cant remember which) TCO- coolant temp The new solenoids on the HP pump are PCV and VCV. Pressure and Volume control valve. Hope you enjoyed Dearborn and a little taste of what we have to go through to calibrate these monsters.

I cant imagine where the head stud rumor came from but I have never worked on or seen one with studs. They have all been torque to yield bolts. I am not sure what you mean about glow plugs but they are located at the bottom of cylinder heads, they are under the round black plugs in the valve cover. The picture of the fuel pump shows the wiring for two new solenoids(pressure control and volume control), I believe that is where the wiring you spoke of is going. Last but not least, the VGT mechanisms are electric.

They arent the only ones with a system like this in the works. Do you know when they plan on inplementing this? This method works really well just a little slow reacting.

Is there any signs of power improvers? Maybe its some sort of water/methanol injection system gone awry.

Did it look like the compressor inlet tube had been recently removed? I am wondering if the owner tried some kind of homebrewed starting fluid. Have you narrowed down what the fluid actually is? From the pictures is looks like gold coolant but I cant think of any way it would get there.

While I am certainly no 6.0L expert I will give this my two cents. If the engine is running audibly quieter is is normally only four things: too much EGR(i.e. stuck valve), retarded timing, an additional injection or lack of main injection. An additional injection, all of the sudden popping up, seems pretty unlikely. Retarded timing also seems unlikely although could happen if the CKP/CMP is reading incorrectly. Lack of fuel mass injected could certainly be the cause but you would likely feel that in all rpm ranges and the idle should be some what unstable, since you didnt say it was...that leaves the EGR valve which given the 6.0's history seems the most likely suspect. I would say you cheapest/easiest course of action would be to pull it out and clean it. If that doesnt fix it then look at the other areas. Again I am not a 6.0 expert but hopefully this gives you something to look into.

Worth more.....Nah this engine will be bulletproof, the most you guys will have to do is change dirty air filters.(just kidding) I have worked on this thing for well over two years and it is a bear. If engineering did their job with the body removal procedure you will probably be doing that for a lot of jobs. On the bright side I have heard the diag procedures are a lot more accurate and definitive so maybe you can make up some time there. Sounds like a raise is in order around February.

Has any one read or participated in the Diesel Talk Live Turbo and EGR Cleaning Fordstar broadcast. I just finished reading the materials from PTS and it says there are a few things under development including: ! New Larger Oil Drain Tube ! New replacement Turbo without VGT ! WDS Diagnostic using a Turbo Vane Position Sensor (VPS) Has anyone heard more about the turbo without VGT? Does this just mean a service part that you have to transfer over the VGT mechanism or is there actually going to be a non-VGT version? Finally for those of you who dont get over to TDS someone over there as taken a lot of pictures of the 6.4. http://earnhartbuilt.com/ Looks like you guys on the front lines have a lot to look forward to. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

There was going to be more than that for '08. Be glad those are all the coolers you have to deal with. Dont be surprised if there are more in the coming years.