Jeff_

Well, I have to resurect this thread unfortunately and let you guys know the problem isn't totally resolved yet. I have one in the shop now that has already had the thermostats replaced twice by other dealers, and had the reflash per the TSB last week by me. It came back again yesterday with a P0128 so I called hotline. The truck I'm working on is a Job 1. The TSB reflash only covers Job3 trucks. They are still working on a reflash for the earlier build (Job 1 and 2). So if you get an earlier build 6.4 with a P0128 or P0196 there is not much you can do at this point, so don't waste your time until Ford releases a fix.

The tranny tech I used to work next to had a sticker on his box... "If it doesn't fit, FORCE IT. If it breaks, then it needed to be replaced anyway." He lived by this motto actually.

Good idea with the divorced T-case, this way you can use pretty much any 2x4 trans and just have a custom driveshaft built to connect the two... actually you'll prolly need 3 custom driveshafts total. Which T-case are you thinking, NP205?

That sounds like an interesting challenge, Yes we wanna see! What tranny are you using?

Back in the ol' 6.0 days, hotline told me that as long as the machined grove doesn't exceed .164 deep or wide in any spot it is technically in spec. That said, I have permanently fixed several bedplate leaks that other dealers already attempted prior, and their groove dimensions were almost always within specs - Luke warm hotline indeed. The solution is this: Yank the engine, mount it on a stand, flip her over, disassemble, then thoroughly de-grease and dry both the block and the bedplate. Then lay the new seals in the bedplate groove and run a small bead of the light gray ultra silicone sealer (7.3 oil pan stuff) on the inner side of each seal the full length of the engine. It's ok if the silicone touches the rubber. Then within 3 minutes - lay the bedplate back on the engine block and torque the bolts to spec (Careful not to damage the tone ring). You will see the silicone squeeze through the seam inside the block, yet the engine's exterior will show no signs of this "hardware update". Much like the saying "pain is weakness leaving the body", this sight of silicone squeezing out is "design flaw becoming irrelevant." Odds are if you replace the short block for this concern, the one you get will be just as flawed in the machined surface, so better to just improve the design yourself and be done with it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif And for God's sake, don't try this "in vehicle" like some dorks on the Ford boards claim to do. The reason is that gravity will work against you if the engine isn't upside down, and thus contaminate your uncured silicone with oil that runs into it. Not to mention trying this "in vehicle" would be a miserable experience in it's own right, and probably not save you much time if any. Since it's a 6.4, don't forget to also seal the threads on the breather nipple that screws in the block before reinstalling the engine because they like to leak through the threads. Its a lot harder to do after the the engine is reinstalled (see bottom picture).

Check out Web course 51G07W0 (FIRTFT 6.0 Turbocharger Diag and service) Look under the 6.0 Turbocharger operation tab / Turbo, EGR, and Exhaust interaction sub tab. It didn't mention this specific protection strategy, but it did emphasize the relationship between the two components and how a fault in one would effect the other. I too could have sworn that they went over this protection strategy in the 6.0 drivability class. I went on Stars to see if I could download the course material, but for some reason it isn't available online anymore. If I remember right, our instructor even bugged a truck to do exactly this and made us figure out why. I know the bug he performed was to disconnect the EP sensor, and plug the connector into an extra EP sensor he had, which wasn't plumbed to the exhaust manifold thus fooling the pcm into thinking EP was much lower than it actually was. This caused the truck to overboost for a short while before the MAP reading concerned the PCM enough to restrict boost to 11psi - or something like that... I was under the impression the PCM accomplished this by opening the EGR partially to bleed off boost - but It's been years so who knows. I suppose one could make a recording of such a bugged vehicle and see how the EGR pid changes to know for sure. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif

This was the topic relating to that picture... CLICK HERE

This is a sticky topic, and I doubt there is a right or wrong answer. We all know that even the current incarnation of the tsb, while better than its predecessor, is still a far cry from perfection. The procedures in it represent the very best techniques in determining which component or components have failed, yet they are still flawed due to the variables that can’t be duplicated in the shop. As mentioned before, some leaks only show up under extreme circumstances like pulling a horse trailer, or when the engine is at operating temp. Last I checked, Ford didn’t send us a 30,000 pound trailer in a Rotunda kit for testing purposes… And for that matter, none of the egr coolers I’ve tested off the vehicle were still at normal operating temperature by the time I removed them. I remember in school hearing that when the egr cooler is operating, there is something like an 800 degree temperature drop from one side to the other. It is impossible to duplicate those exact operating conditions “off vehicle” and be fully confident when the tsb procedure of pressure testing it in a bucket of water shows it as ok. Sometimes the problem is obvious: When you have coolant pouring out of the drain hole in the muffler, coolant in the egr passage of the intake, and/or a hydro lock condition on bank 1, it is a pretty sure bet that coolers alone will drastically improve the condition of the vehicle. If the aforementioned truck is only used as a grocery getter for someone with penis envy – an egr cooler alone is probably good enough assuming the ECT/EOT spread is in spec. It would be nice however if Ford would acknowledge that things can be more mysterious, and that their tsb is not infoulable. Tell me if the following sounds familiar. It should, because it was brought to you by the same people who wrote the coolant overflow tsb: “Replace the egr valve, no wait, just clean it. Oh wait again, turns out cleaning isn’t a good repair - so go back to just replacing them… Oh yeah, but be careful because we mis-built several thousand new ones, so just keep replacing them until you get a good one. Ok now we’ve got it figured out, if you get one with a silver paint dot then you’re good to go… hopefully. Make sure to determine the "root cause" of the egr failure, even though we know it's a mix of fuel quality and design shortcomings... And while you’re at it, you better reflash it with the 17th software calibration we’ve come up with for this engine. We’ve got a good feeling about this one!!! Oh, and by the way, did you know your Diesel warranty numbers are too high?” It would almost be funny if it weren't true, but this is what we’re dealing with. The above clusterf%$# is one of many examples, of what happens when the bean counters are at odds with engineers, and take control of a once proud company. As you know, shit rolls down hill. As it happens, we are at the bottom of this hill, looking up as an ever growing turd ball is barreling right toward us at terminal velocity. It's easy to blame us after all, we're just technicians - the other white meat. My advice is this: Do the diagnostics to the best of your ability. Document everything, obtain prior approval codes whenever necessary, and write good thorough stories to explain everything in detail with the results of every step of the process. Don’t make a habit of over repairing things, and communicate with your service manager to find out what your particular dealers’ Diesel warranty numbers are, and figure out how much wiggle room you have because you will run into an occasional situation where an over repair may be appropriate due to circumstances beyond your control. Fellas, it ain't perfect, but this is how I have been operating for quite a while now. Though I can’t guarantee that my efforts will result in my dealer getting paid 100% of the time, I can guarantee that I have done everything in my power fix it right the first time without going overboard, and to get my dealer reimbursed for the repair. In so doing, I eliminated my dealer's ability to blame me if they don’t. Hopefully the 4.4 and 6.7 will turn out better than the Navistar engines, and when the Navistar’s go out of warranty, and the inter-company political battles finally fade, we will hopefully return to some semblance of normal and be respected once again as the diagnosticians we are. And when that day comes, the sun will come out, and the birds will sing, Ford stock will rise above $10. Hell, I may even be able to afford to trade my Saturn for a new Super Duty, and if I have any problems with it, I want someone like Bill to fix it. The current regime at FoMoCo may not like it. The Wall Street analysts may bitch, but I just placed an order for 100 shares of Ford stock, so now, as someone with a vested interest in Ford's profitability, they answer to me. And as a shareholder, I am hereby making an executive decision... I say that based on my own observations of the failure to save the company by squeezing techs and short changing customers, the future of the company actually depends on our ability to create a loyal customer base instead. Jim, you have my blessing to give her the ole super size #3 with curly fries and a Diet Coke. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Just because it's you! And for my next trick, I'll try to use my new self-proclaimed influence to have you reinstated on inford. Just as soon as my $500 stake in the company lands me a corner office down the hall from Mr. Mulally. Ooooh the heads I'm going to knock in Dearborn!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/boink3.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Odds are though that I'll be treated like Michael Moore when he tried to pay Roger Smith an impromptu visit at GM 20 years ago. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cover.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/fouet3.gif Damn that was a good movie, but enough about Amway and proper Rabbit cleaning methods. The gentleman from Minnesota now yields the floor.

Ya know... You could get a really nice used truck with a 7.3 for that kind of money /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif

Quote: Everything was brutal on that car. The dude's Christmas list was in the car once when we worked on it - "Underwear for Nancy 5XL" **shudder** Sounds to me like Nancy is a multiple wiener gal who doesn't care what color her margarine is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/puke.gif

Quote: Can you beleive that Quebec is still fighting the issue of not allowing margarine into their province that is coloured yellow? GEEZ, and I though my country had civil unrest. I guess all I have to do is look north to realize how good I really have it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif Speaking of Ralph... One time I took a girl to a ball game. I asked her what I could get her from the concession stand. Her reply: "Just a wiener" - To which I replied "Oh good, you're a ONE wiener girl, the kind I can bring home to meet mom." She didn't quite know how to respond to that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/surprise.gif

Wow, I had no idea there was a Canadian Confederacy too. Which side won that civil war????? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/stooges.gif

Ralph obviously doesn't know who he's dealing with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif

SWEET!!! I already posted on it. I thanked Kevin and the Tech review panel for their long fought battle... Then I asked if their next trick could be smileys and avatars /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I thought I'd resurrect this post to show you guys something wonderful. The brand new 6.4 reflash finally has an indicator in the dash to let the customer know when they are in regen!!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif

When we started getting hosed by aftermarket warranties, the solution was simple: Have the customer authorize plenty of diag/tear-down time in the event "Sleazycare" decided not to cover it. That way the dealer gets paid either way, and the only one who gets hurt, is the customer who bought the crappy warranty to begin with. ~Sorry sir, you are now a victim of natural selection~ If Ford wants to act like a sleazy aftermarket warranty, the solution is simple: TREAT THEM LIKE ONE. It won't take long for Ford's PR department to realize the vast scope of the consumer insurrection, when they get an earful from enough of their customers who had to pay out of pocket for something that should have been covered by warranty. This would make for a whole ton of bad press, which, happens to be about the only thing that will make ford realize that they had damn well better stop squeezing the dealers, and find better ways to return to profitability. In fact, I have a suggestion to do exactly that - Get rid of the bean counting department all together. You know, the one that has completely failed in it's foolhardy venture of attempting to keep the company in the black by squeezing techs. Instead, they should direct those bean counting funds into building products in house. Can they really blame the dealership techs, when it was Ford's idea to buy VT365's from Navistar, program them with software that produces enough power to compete with the engines GM and Dodge have specifically developed for their trucks (far more power than VT365's ever had in Navistar applications mind you), and pray that F Series customers won't break em...or worse, soup them up even more with a vast assortment of readily available aftermarket devices, and cause untold litigation expenses when the inevitable happens. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif Some may say that such a radical idea of charging customers for un-reimbursed warranty work would violate the dealer franchise agreement. I would submit to you however, that Ford's failure to reimburse dealers for ANY of the legitimate warranty work they perform, is already a violation of that agreement. There are only 2 kinds of work: Warranty, and Customer pay. Any pro-bono is at the discretion of the independently owned franchise... NOT mandated by the manufacturer. Therefore, if Ford declines to pay for something, it implies that Ford has determined the repair falls into a CP category for whatever reason - Aye Aye Captain!!! We'll just get a credit card number from all customers prior to doing any repair, and charge the ones Ford deems not covered by warranty. And we will make damn sure the customers know who to blame. It is hard enough to work on these things even when we do get paid, I certainly don't do it for fun. Time is money, and my time ain't cheap. If they think their warranty costs are high now, just wait till they piss off enough of the experienced technicians they spent all this time and money training. We are free agents after all, and at this point, some of us wouldn't require a huge push to cause us to just give up and change brands. I have a feeling that using a bunch of lube techs with "interactive diagnostics"- while looking good on paper to the illustrious bean counters, will actually cost a whole hell of a lot more. Can you tell I'm pissed? I've never worked on a Cummins or Duramax, but I have no doubt that that after all the 6.0/6.4's I've fixed, I could certainly learn how If I ever get short changed for no good reason. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/flamethrower.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ford.gif Note to Ford: You are better than a sleazy aftermarket warranty, so for your own sake start acting like it. If you go down this path there is no coming back. Jim's venting rants are contagious /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif I think I feel better now.

I've had a couple where the rocker carrier o-ring (between the cast iron cylinder head and the aluminum rocker carrier) have leaked. If this is what you find, you'll be doing a head gasket too since the head bolts need to come out to separate the cylinder head halves. I've never seen a 6.0 leak any fluid externally from the actual head gaskets...lots of internal coolant leaks though. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/puke.gif Oooh, don't forget to have hotline bless this repair prior to doing it, unless you're a level 1 dealer. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ford.gif

TSB 08-4-7 Quote: "VGT Solenoid replacement is no longer necessary. The new oil drain tube will resolve the coking issue." "The oil drain tube has been revised for greater turbocharger oil flow." Too bad 95% of mine have been rusted not coked /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif

I haven't seen a service message yet, but according to new chatter on the fmc boards this is the part number for the coolant venturi T fitting kit. 8C3Z-8B379-B

Actually, now that I think about it... Since ESP declined to pay for my #55 cab off nightmare due to customer inflicted damage which wasn't the result of Ford's workmanship or materials - I have an entire test truck sitting outside waiting for me to harvest it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif I think I'm going to need a bigger toolbox to hold all those parts /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif See the "cab and body removal" topic in the Body/Chassis/Electrical section for more info on the aforementioned POS

I did check codes prior to disconnecting the edge chip. One thing I didn't mention though was the batteries were also dead and I had to jump it to get it running - this is probably why I had no relevant codes... either that or the edge chip prevents them from being set. I'm just glad I got lucky with my pile of test parts before I got too deep into it. This one could have potentially kicked my ass for days.

I have a test ficm that I figured would be worth trying before I pulled everything apart. Lucky me /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/king.gif

Good luck Greg!!! I hope it works out, but even if you escape this industry, I hope you still stay involved on this site. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

Quote: is that superstition or obsessive compulsive disorder? I do goofy shit like that too. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif Actually it is fear of, and respect for the diesel gods. Especially Zeus, to whom I want to appear a humble servant - not a cavalier wrench jockey in need of humility. I have seen such lightning bolts hurled from Mt Olympus toward a co-worker of mine on more than one occasion. He learns things the hard way, and I prefer to learn from his mistakes, It is far better this way, not to mention more entertaining for me. Last week he angered Zeus by dropping a bolt in a 6.0 while doing an STC. He knew it made it all the way through to the oil pan. Rather than just removing the pan to retrieve it, he thought he could outsmart the system. His grand strategy: Claim the branch tube was excessively bent, in order to have the tsb pay him to replace it. At which time of course, he could try to fish out his lost bolt with a magnet...BIG MISTAKE. He spent an entire week perched in utter misery like a flying squirrel atop a topside creeper. All this to carry out his genius plan of performing an in vehicle branch tube replacement. A procedure we both knew was unnecessary, and, as fate would have it, failed to accomplish what he set out to do anyway. For all his suffering, he ended up removing the oil pan to retrieve his lost bolt. And then, to add insult to stupidity, when he finally got everything back together, he started it only to find a cyl 7 miss from a faulty injector. Zeus must have been super pissed to shove a lightning bolt like that up his ass. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/popcorn.gif The phrase "haste makes waste," comes to mind... As does "glutton for punishment." And that my friends, is why I choose not to tempt fate by making a preemptive tally mark before a job is done. Call me crazy if you will, psychotic perhaps. When all is said and done, I am nothing more than a product of my environment. Sometimes experience is the best teacher, and sometimes it's just the most expensive one. _______________________________________________________ In other news, ESP declined to pay for my #55 cab off project... Something about "customer abuse," or so they say. The customer couldn't come up with the 13 grand to fix his indiscretion either. This is ok for a few reasons. 1: because my car runs just fine, 2: because the Bobcat moved his piece of shit out of my stall with very little effort, and 3: because I was smart enough to have the customer to authorize 10 hours of diag/tear-down in the event ESP didn't pay...Though it may be interesting for my SM to explain to the customer why he owes us a grand for turning his truck into a pile of parts /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif. Happy truckin dumbass!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hahaha.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/readthis.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crybaby2.gif Moral of the story: Don't make a conscious effort to destroy something you can't afford to fix. Just because your daddy didn't teach you personal responsibility, doesn't mean other people and/or Diesel gods won't teach it to you - the hard way. Though my cart still only has 54 tally marks, at least it keeps me off the Diesel god's shit list. Does that explain it? Below is a picture of what would have been #55: NOW SERVING NUMBER 56...NUMBER 56 PLEASE

Quote: Originally Posted By: Jeff_E Currently my 55th is torn apart. You keep track? May I recommend counseling? I do keep track. My plastic cart has 54 tally marks on the side representing every cab off job I've done. My 55th is still torn apart awaiting approval. This one is a real pickle because it is now under the illustrious 200k esp dieselcare warranty. Problem is, the customer replaced his own air filter, and lost one of the metal air filter clips in the process. I found it for him though...pieces embedded in the #6 piston. I am doing everything in my power to convince esp not to pay for it. We even had our regional zone rep out yesterday, and that was after they sent an inspector TWICE. This thing has been apart for a couple weeks now just waiting for esp to figure out what they want to do with it. We're pretty sure it was chipped too due to the center pcm connector not being fully seated when the truck came in. Speaking of which, that might explain why he had a new engine installed last year, and head gaskets 4k miles ago. He has one of those "cavalier attitudes" too. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hahaha.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crybaby2.gif Getting back to my tally marks though - I only make them after the vehicle is done and running due to my superstition that if I preemptively make the mark on my cart before the job is done, I may fuck something up and have to do it all over.